1
00:00:06,150 --> 00:00:04,950
what's up ladies and germs how you doing

2
00:00:08,310 --> 00:00:06,160
um

3
00:00:11,030 --> 00:00:08,320
glad that you are joining us for this

4
00:00:11,990 --> 00:00:11,040
very special um episode we have here

5
00:00:14,549 --> 00:00:12,000
today

6
00:00:17,269 --> 00:00:14,559
um very much looking forward to it um

7
00:00:19,510 --> 00:00:17,279
first of all jay um christopher king is

8
00:00:22,710 --> 00:00:19,520
one of my favorite people in the world

9
00:00:25,589 --> 00:00:22,720
and uh the experiencer group is awesome

10
00:00:27,830 --> 00:00:25,599
uh which i will i know you know not

11
00:00:30,710 --> 00:00:27,840
everybody has to say anything but i will

12
00:00:32,870 --> 00:00:30,720
disclose that i did sign up for that um

13
00:00:36,069 --> 00:00:32,880
just recently so

14
00:00:38,389 --> 00:00:36,079
i'm looking forward to it and

15
00:00:40,790 --> 00:00:38,399
you know karen's going to join us too

16
00:00:43,430 --> 00:00:40,800
she is the director of communications

17
00:00:45,270 --> 00:00:43,440
and project uh management for the john e

18
00:00:46,709 --> 00:00:45,280
mack institute

19
00:00:48,790 --> 00:00:46,719
um

20
00:00:50,790 --> 00:00:48,800
you know we've had a lot of john mack

21
00:00:52,950 --> 00:00:50,800
themed stuff happening lately right we

22
00:00:55,029 --> 00:00:52,960
had ralph blumenthal on

23
00:00:56,869 --> 00:00:55,039
um and i've just been kind of getting

24
00:00:58,470 --> 00:00:56,879
deep into that too because the guy was

25
00:01:01,270 --> 00:00:58,480
really just a

26
00:01:03,349 --> 00:01:01,280
quite a genius and

27
00:01:06,230 --> 00:01:03,359
you know i think

28
00:01:07,990 --> 00:01:06,240
you know jay said a couple times

29
00:01:08,710 --> 00:01:08,000
to me he's like i think we could use

30
00:01:11,350 --> 00:01:08,720
more

31
00:01:13,350 --> 00:01:11,360
of of that guy in that attitude and that

32
00:01:14,950 --> 00:01:13,360
way of thinking in this realm right now

33
00:01:17,749 --> 00:01:14,960
and

34
00:01:18,870 --> 00:01:17,759
you know the more i dig into it the more

35
00:01:22,710 --> 00:01:18,880
um

36
00:01:24,830 --> 00:01:22,720
with that at all

37
00:01:27,590 --> 00:01:24,840
you know

38
00:01:29,109 --> 00:01:27,600
so without

39
00:01:32,789 --> 00:01:29,119
further ado

40
00:01:35,190 --> 00:01:32,799
um i hope you guys enjoy yourself

41
00:01:36,870 --> 00:01:35,200
and um take something away from this

42
00:01:38,630 --> 00:01:36,880
because in the end

43
00:01:39,429 --> 00:01:38,640
that is my goal

44
00:01:42,310 --> 00:01:39,439
so

45
00:01:45,350 --> 00:01:42,320
um i'll be right back with

46
00:01:48,069 --> 00:01:45,360
uh the two great guests

47
00:01:49,109 --> 00:01:48,079
t-minus ten nine eight

48
00:01:49,990 --> 00:01:49,119
seven

49
00:01:52,069 --> 00:01:50,000
six

50
00:01:53,190 --> 00:01:52,079
five

51
00:01:55,350 --> 00:01:53,200
three

52
00:01:58,630 --> 00:01:55,360
two one

53
00:02:05,090 --> 00:01:58,640
zero and liftoff of space shuttle

54
00:03:02,229 --> 00:02:30,570
[Music]

55
00:03:05,910 --> 00:03:03,670
i hope you liked the intro i thought it

56
00:03:07,589 --> 00:03:05,920
was pretty cool

57
00:03:11,030 --> 00:03:07,599
and that's all that matters is what i

58
00:03:11,990 --> 00:03:11,040
think right all right so uh first up we

59
00:03:15,190 --> 00:03:12,000
have

60
00:03:16,869 --> 00:03:15,200
this guy jay how are you

61
00:03:18,869 --> 00:03:16,879
doing really well sean it's great to be

62
00:03:21,270 --> 00:03:18,879
back and i love the new bells and

63
00:03:24,390 --> 00:03:21,280
whistles on the intro i think it's great

64
00:03:25,910 --> 00:03:24,400
thank you very much you knew um that i

65
00:03:28,550 --> 00:03:25,920
was pretty strict on you saying

66
00:03:31,030 --> 00:03:28,560
something about it as we went um over

67
00:03:32,789 --> 00:03:31,040
that beforehand so i'm glad you adhered

68
00:03:34,630 --> 00:03:32,799
to the script

69
00:03:36,710 --> 00:03:34,640
yeah hopefully i'm only on two two

70
00:03:38,550 --> 00:03:36,720
demerits today rather than three or four

71
00:03:40,550 --> 00:03:38,560
[Laughter]

72
00:03:44,869 --> 00:03:40,560
yeah

73
00:03:46,550 --> 00:03:44,879
the crossed fingers i knew you would do

74
00:03:47,670 --> 00:03:46,560
then okay

75
00:03:49,270 --> 00:03:47,680
okay

76
00:03:51,270 --> 00:03:49,280
that's like you make a promise but you

77
00:03:52,789 --> 00:03:51,280
got the fingers crossed you know yeah

78
00:03:54,789 --> 00:03:52,799
okay all right

79
00:03:56,710 --> 00:03:54,799
um so yeah what's what's been up with

80
00:03:59,429 --> 00:03:56,720
you how's everything been going since we

81
00:04:02,470 --> 00:03:59,439
last uh touched base and how's the

82
00:04:03,750 --> 00:04:02,480
experience uh experiencer group going

83
00:04:06,070 --> 00:04:03,760
and

84
00:04:08,070 --> 00:04:06,080
you know i signed up so i'm excited to

85
00:04:10,149 --> 00:04:08,080
uh dive into that more

86
00:04:12,789 --> 00:04:10,159
oh that's wonderful that's so wonderful

87
00:04:14,070 --> 00:04:12,799
yeah i'm so excited about that um the

88
00:04:15,750 --> 00:04:14,080
experiencer group's been going really

89
00:04:18,629 --> 00:04:15,760
well it's been like a really

90
00:04:21,270 --> 00:04:18,639
busy week over there um

91
00:04:23,909 --> 00:04:21,280
for me anyway and for for a lot of uh

92
00:04:25,350 --> 00:04:23,919
folks in the community um last weekend

93
00:04:28,150 --> 00:04:25,360
we had

94
00:04:29,670 --> 00:04:28,160
gordon white as a guest he's a really

95
00:04:33,590 --> 00:04:29,680
brilliant thinker he's kind of like a

96
00:04:37,030 --> 00:04:33,600
living encyclopedia of the occult

97
00:04:38,550 --> 00:04:37,040
and the history of practical magic

98
00:04:41,110 --> 00:04:38,560
right and

99
00:04:43,189 --> 00:04:41,120
and folklore with regard to to the

100
00:04:45,670 --> 00:04:43,199
paranormal and so

101
00:04:48,150 --> 00:04:45,680
it just really fits the vibe lately he's

102
00:04:50,790 --> 00:04:48,160
also hyper articulate and super funny

103
00:04:53,430 --> 00:04:50,800
and so having him on to be able to

104
00:04:55,670 --> 00:04:53,440
to give voice to some of these

105
00:04:57,430 --> 00:04:55,680
you know often within ufology

106
00:04:59,350 --> 00:04:57,440
you know jacques villa was

107
00:05:01,590 --> 00:04:59,360
bitching about this 50 years ago right

108
00:05:04,070 --> 00:05:01,600
that we need to cast a wider net and

109
00:05:05,510 --> 00:05:04,080
where we're finding cases

110
00:05:06,950 --> 00:05:05,520
right what we're looking for and things

111
00:05:08,469 --> 00:05:06,960
like that and people like gordon are

112
00:05:10,390 --> 00:05:08,479
really good about

113
00:05:12,070 --> 00:05:10,400
kind of naturally organically that's

114
00:05:14,150 --> 00:05:12,080
just where their heads naturally at

115
00:05:16,710 --> 00:05:14,160
having that wider net and so that was

116
00:05:18,790 --> 00:05:16,720
really helpful i've got a new

117
00:05:21,110 --> 00:05:18,800
there's a new group for um that's

118
00:05:23,189 --> 00:05:21,120
primarily for abductees and other like

119
00:05:27,830 --> 00:05:23,199
physical contact cases

120
00:05:30,070 --> 00:05:27,840
um and uh we we have our second new of

121
00:05:32,390 --> 00:05:30,080
this new group our second meeting on

122
00:05:34,230 --> 00:05:32,400
thursday really looking forward to that

123
00:05:36,710 --> 00:05:34,240
it's been a really deep

124
00:05:38,710 --> 00:05:36,720
series of conversations got another one

125
00:05:40,790 --> 00:05:38,720
on friday and

126
00:05:42,950 --> 00:05:40,800
then this weekend we've got like we've

127
00:05:44,150 --> 00:05:42,960
got a spooky stories

128
00:05:48,790 --> 00:05:44,160
uh

129
00:05:50,629 --> 00:05:48,800
on saturday

130
00:05:52,710 --> 00:05:50,639
and then on sunday we've got book club

131
00:05:55,029 --> 00:05:52,720
and we're going to be talking about uh

132
00:05:57,350 --> 00:05:55,039
i called america mitch horowitz is a

133
00:05:58,950 --> 00:05:57,360
cult america we're kind of on the call

134
00:06:01,189 --> 00:05:58,960
we've been on an occult theme for the

135
00:06:03,510 --> 00:06:01,199
week because you know

136
00:06:06,150 --> 00:06:03,520
spooktacular october right yeah you're

137
00:06:07,830 --> 00:06:06,160
gonna do i find that a lot of people get

138
00:06:09,749 --> 00:06:07,840
kind of um

139
00:06:11,749 --> 00:06:09,759
wiggly when it comes to when when they

140
00:06:12,950 --> 00:06:11,759
hear the word occult why do you think

141
00:06:15,189 --> 00:06:12,960
that is

142
00:06:17,350 --> 00:06:15,199
that's a good question i i think that

143
00:06:19,590 --> 00:06:17,360
part of it is and i don't think there's

144
00:06:20,629 --> 00:06:19,600
a car in down there too long i see her

145
00:06:23,510 --> 00:06:20,639
right there

146
00:06:25,270 --> 00:06:23,520
oh great cool yeah yeah i think with the

147
00:06:27,029 --> 00:06:25,280
regard to the occult there is just a lot

148
00:06:29,350 --> 00:06:27,039
of stigma like there is with a lot of

149
00:06:31,909 --> 00:06:29,360
this paranormal stuff and and

150
00:06:34,150 --> 00:06:31,919
um this and mitch's book mitch warwick's

151
00:06:35,909 --> 00:06:34,160
book actually goes into that occult

152
00:06:38,150 --> 00:06:35,919
america really well in terms of like

153
00:06:39,590 --> 00:06:38,160
mapping out that

154
00:06:41,909 --> 00:06:39,600
that a while ago

155
00:06:43,830 --> 00:06:41,919
say even in the 1700s

156
00:06:46,309 --> 00:06:43,840
and and even

157
00:06:48,309 --> 00:06:46,319
towards the end of the 1800s

158
00:06:49,990 --> 00:06:48,319
there there wasn't as much stigma at all

159
00:06:53,670 --> 00:06:50,000
i mean people like abe lincoln abe

160
00:06:56,150 --> 00:06:53,680
lincoln was secret not so secretly

161
00:06:57,270 --> 00:06:56,160
uh into the occult and and

162
00:06:59,029 --> 00:06:57,280
and did

163
00:07:03,350 --> 00:06:59,039
participated in seances at the white

164
00:07:08,550 --> 00:07:06,070
the first female presidential candidate

165
00:07:12,070 --> 00:07:08,560
ever was in i think it was eight it was

166
00:07:14,710 --> 00:07:12,080
in the late 1800s and it was a famous

167
00:07:17,749 --> 00:07:14,720
trans medium a famous female trans

168
00:07:20,629 --> 00:07:17,759
medium and she was and she literally was

169
00:07:23,270 --> 00:07:20,639
also the first female that spoke in

170
00:07:24,309 --> 00:07:23,280
front of congress how about that

171
00:07:28,309 --> 00:07:24,319
so

172
00:07:30,230 --> 00:07:28,319
that people couldn't mention that's

173
00:07:32,230 --> 00:07:30,240
really kind of in a lot of ways that

174
00:07:34,309 --> 00:07:32,240
turned into a very much an early 20th

175
00:07:35,350 --> 00:07:34,319
century thing and it seemed like a way

176
00:07:36,870 --> 00:07:35,360
for

177
00:07:39,189 --> 00:07:36,880
in a lot of ways at least mitch's

178
00:07:41,510 --> 00:07:39,199
contention is that that's that was a way

179
00:07:44,150 --> 00:07:41,520
for christianity to kind of take some of

180
00:07:46,629 --> 00:07:44,160
the ideas from the occult like the idea

181
00:07:49,510 --> 00:07:46,639
of the idea of money magic

182
00:07:51,189 --> 00:07:49,520
and the idea of kind of like uh of of

183
00:07:53,189 --> 00:07:51,199
manifestation

184
00:07:55,749 --> 00:07:53,199
that the way that that's been kind of

185
00:07:57,749 --> 00:07:55,759
brought into evangelical church life and

186
00:07:59,670 --> 00:07:57,759
things like that and they like having

187
00:08:01,830 --> 00:07:59,680
that separate they like grabbing those

188
00:08:04,869 --> 00:08:01,840
ideas but they don't want the

189
00:08:07,270 --> 00:08:04,879
the stickiness of of of the occult there

190
00:08:08,390 --> 00:08:07,280
that's a good point i feel like

191
00:08:09,990 --> 00:08:08,400
uh

192
00:08:11,990 --> 00:08:10,000
she brought this up i think a cult is

193
00:08:13,830 --> 00:08:12,000
heavily associated with satanism or

194
00:08:15,749 --> 00:08:13,840
crowley right

195
00:08:17,749 --> 00:08:15,759
that maybe that's the plan

196
00:08:19,350 --> 00:08:17,759
yeah we should probably just blame led

197
00:08:23,350 --> 00:08:19,360
zeppelin you know what i mean jimmy

198
00:08:24,950 --> 00:08:23,360
jimmy alex basically and he's ready

199
00:08:25,830 --> 00:08:24,960
he read

200
00:08:28,390 --> 00:08:25,840
yeah i was good my mind

201
00:08:30,309 --> 00:08:28,400
gonna that's like the only thing um the

202
00:08:32,870 --> 00:08:30,319
only person i guess that

203
00:08:34,630 --> 00:08:32,880
i know of i'm sure there's a lot more

204
00:08:36,630 --> 00:08:34,640
but that i know of that i was really

205
00:08:41,110 --> 00:08:36,640
heavy in doing uh like definitely

206
00:08:42,949 --> 00:08:41,120
shifted who i was in my life

207
00:08:45,030 --> 00:08:42,959
trajectory

208
00:08:47,590 --> 00:08:45,040
uh when i was a kid just like

209
00:08:49,829 --> 00:08:47,600
jamming led zeppelin as a teenager in my

210
00:08:52,150 --> 00:08:49,839
bedroom like you know

211
00:08:55,030 --> 00:08:52,160
um kind of trying to disappear from the

212
00:08:56,790 --> 00:08:55,040
world so to speak and and doing that

213
00:08:59,350 --> 00:08:56,800
imagining myself

214
00:09:01,509 --> 00:08:59,360
you know be jimmy page on this stage and

215
00:09:02,710 --> 00:09:01,519
all kind of fun stuff you know

216
00:09:04,070 --> 00:09:02,720
but also

217
00:09:06,150 --> 00:09:04,080
i think there's something there though

218
00:09:08,389 --> 00:09:06,160
because that the heavy metal and like

219
00:09:10,790 --> 00:09:08,399
especially through the 80s people like

220
00:09:12,790 --> 00:09:10,800
tipper gore and them kind of trying to

221
00:09:15,110 --> 00:09:12,800
nail ozzy's ass to the wall and stuff

222
00:09:17,670 --> 00:09:15,120
like that you know i think that that

223
00:09:20,870 --> 00:09:17,680
that whole parental parental guidance

224
00:09:23,350 --> 00:09:20,880
lyrics uh debacle in congress that may

225
00:09:25,190 --> 00:09:23,360
have done some damage as well because

226
00:09:27,990 --> 00:09:25,200
even as late as the late even as late as

227
00:09:29,750 --> 00:09:28,000
the late 60s ouija boards were actually

228
00:09:32,470 --> 00:09:29,760
the most popular

229
00:09:33,430 --> 00:09:32,480
board game that parker brothers sold it

230
00:09:37,269 --> 00:09:33,440
actually

231
00:09:39,430 --> 00:09:37,279
as late as the late 60s which is great i

232
00:09:41,750 --> 00:09:39,440
wanted to get one but my wife's like no

233
00:09:44,070 --> 00:09:41,760
we're not doing it nope she's had some

234
00:09:46,070 --> 00:09:44,080
experiences growing up that i think are

235
00:09:47,670 --> 00:09:46,080
still with her

236
00:09:50,470 --> 00:09:47,680
um but

237
00:09:53,430 --> 00:09:50,480
yeah kind of like ghost stuff so

238
00:09:56,150 --> 00:09:53,440
stuart stewart's also no

239
00:09:58,710 --> 00:09:56,160
is anti-ouija board i'm like i think

240
00:10:00,949 --> 00:09:58,720
that it's okay maybe if a lot of other

241
00:10:02,949 --> 00:10:00,959
stuff is in place

242
00:10:05,990 --> 00:10:02,959
stewart davis he likes to call

243
00:10:09,269 --> 00:10:06,000
ouija boards uh the spiritual equivalent

244
00:10:11,509 --> 00:10:09,279
of a greyhound bus station

245
00:10:13,190 --> 00:10:11,519
right okay so it's like

246
00:10:14,069 --> 00:10:13,200
anybody's welcome you don't know you're

247
00:10:16,389 --> 00:10:14,079
getting

248
00:10:19,190 --> 00:10:16,399
maybe complete with the dirty bathrooms

249
00:10:20,310 --> 00:10:19,200
and everything yeah

250
00:10:21,990 --> 00:10:20,320
yeah

251
00:10:24,470 --> 00:10:22,000
uh well what do you think should we

252
00:10:26,310 --> 00:10:24,480
should we bring on uh karen here

253
00:10:27,990 --> 00:10:26,320
sure that'd be wonderful i love seeing

254
00:10:29,750 --> 00:10:28,000
that i mean not that i don't love just

255
00:10:32,870 --> 00:10:29,760
talking to you

256
00:10:35,590 --> 00:10:32,880
of course yeah okay all right so without

257
00:10:38,470 --> 00:10:35,600
further ado we will bring on

258
00:10:40,790 --> 00:10:38,480
karen how are you hi i'm well i mean

259
00:10:41,910 --> 00:10:40,800
appreciating the uh bust greyhound bus

260
00:10:44,470 --> 00:10:41,920
station ouija joke

261
00:10:46,630 --> 00:10:44,480
[Laughter]

262
00:10:46,810 --> 00:10:46,640
well you might you might be the only one

263
00:10:50,470 --> 00:10:46,820
but

264
00:10:52,630 --> 00:10:50,480
[Laughter]

265
00:10:54,710 --> 00:10:52,640
it reminds me my mind's enjoying you

266
00:10:56,310 --> 00:10:54,720
know the imagery around it for a few

267
00:10:57,269 --> 00:10:56,320
minutes

268
00:10:59,670 --> 00:10:57,279
yeah

269
00:11:01,670 --> 00:10:59,680
and also without any coaching i have to

270
00:11:03,430 --> 00:11:01,680
say that i i actually liked your your

271
00:11:06,790 --> 00:11:03,440
intro a lot

272
00:11:10,150 --> 00:11:06,800
oh you did awesome thank you um

273
00:11:11,910 --> 00:11:10,160
do we have a do do we have a delay here

274
00:11:14,150 --> 00:11:11,920
yeah i think a little bit

275
00:11:15,110 --> 00:11:14,160
just slightly

276
00:11:17,110 --> 00:11:15,120
yeah so

277
00:11:19,829 --> 00:11:17,120
it's about three or four seconds for me

278
00:11:21,750 --> 00:11:19,839
i think i'm in um i don't know if i told

279
00:11:23,269 --> 00:11:21,760
you if jay told you but i'm in norway in

280
00:11:24,710 --> 00:11:23,279
a remote cabin

281
00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:24,720
so we may

282
00:11:29,269 --> 00:11:26,480
middle the night for me and we may have

283
00:11:30,870 --> 00:11:29,279
some tech hiccups but uh you'll have to

284
00:11:32,870 --> 00:11:30,880
let me know if for some reason i'm

285
00:11:35,509 --> 00:11:32,880
freezing and not aware of it

286
00:11:36,870 --> 00:11:35,519
it seems like it's aligning more like

287
00:11:39,110 --> 00:11:36,880
since you got on

288
00:11:40,790 --> 00:11:39,120
okay but uh yeah since the hand thing

289
00:11:43,269 --> 00:11:40,800
too that worked

290
00:11:44,470 --> 00:11:43,279
yeah yeah yeah if we just do more of

291
00:11:46,710 --> 00:11:44,480
that

292
00:11:48,550 --> 00:11:46,720
yeah it's like being at yankee stadium

293
00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:48,560
and having like the hankies or something

294
00:11:58,150 --> 00:11:55,350
just fine for me

295
00:12:01,110 --> 00:11:58,160
i just wanted to first of all uh thank

296
00:12:04,150 --> 00:12:01,120
you for for doing this um that's amazing

297
00:12:05,590 --> 00:12:04,160
i know that um you're probably busy and

298
00:12:07,910 --> 00:12:05,600
have a lot of other things you could be

299
00:12:10,629 --> 00:12:07,920
doing so i really appreciate you taking

300
00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:10,639
the time out of your life and your night

301
00:12:14,150 --> 00:12:13,200
um to spend this time with us

302
00:12:15,910 --> 00:12:14,160
um

303
00:12:18,790 --> 00:12:15,920
and

304
00:12:21,269 --> 00:12:18,800
i appreciate the opportunity really

305
00:12:23,430 --> 00:12:21,279
well it's all mine

306
00:12:25,430 --> 00:12:23,440
and um

307
00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:25,440
yeah and it just seems like i don't know

308
00:12:30,470 --> 00:12:27,680
if it's synchronicity or what but i just

309
00:12:31,910 --> 00:12:30,480
keep getting hit with john mack you know

310
00:12:34,069 --> 00:12:31,920
um

311
00:12:34,940 --> 00:12:34,079
and you know you're the latest piece of

312
00:12:37,190 --> 00:12:34,950
that puzzle

313
00:12:39,269 --> 00:12:37,200
[Laughter]

314
00:12:41,030 --> 00:12:39,279
i would love to hear from from you guys

315
00:12:43,910 --> 00:12:41,040
about that for a few minutes because i'm

316
00:12:46,470 --> 00:12:43,920
just getting brought into into your

317
00:12:47,829 --> 00:12:46,480
world so i did hear your introduction

318
00:12:50,069 --> 00:12:47,839
and you know that you spoke that he'd

319
00:12:51,030 --> 00:12:50,079
been coming up so i'm kind of curious if

320
00:12:52,470 --> 00:12:51,040
you could

321
00:12:54,389 --> 00:12:52,480
encapsulate

322
00:12:56,310 --> 00:12:54,399
you know your either a thought or

323
00:12:57,829 --> 00:12:56,320
inspiration around what he's

324
00:13:00,310 --> 00:12:57,839
representing for you right now that

325
00:13:03,430 --> 00:13:00,320
would be wonderful to hear that

326
00:13:04,550 --> 00:13:03,440
uh sure yeah well i would say what mr

327
00:13:07,910 --> 00:13:04,560
mack is

328
00:13:10,310 --> 00:13:07,920
representing for me right now is a sound

329
00:13:11,829 --> 00:13:10,320
down to earth grounded

330
00:13:13,990 --> 00:13:11,839
intelligent

331
00:13:17,750 --> 00:13:14,000
um caring

332
00:13:21,829 --> 00:13:17,760
person that was not afraid to

333
00:13:22,790 --> 00:13:21,839
uh work within the areas that really

334
00:13:24,550 --> 00:13:22,800
you know

335
00:13:27,110 --> 00:13:24,560
scare other people

336
00:13:29,110 --> 00:13:27,120
um because of the stigma

337
00:13:31,110 --> 00:13:29,120
um something that

338
00:13:32,949 --> 00:13:31,120
you know i posted a clip today actually

339
00:13:35,190 --> 00:13:32,959
and it was

340
00:13:38,389 --> 00:13:35,200
it kind of summed it up pretty well when

341
00:13:40,150 --> 00:13:38,399
he was talking about bud hopkins and

342
00:13:42,150 --> 00:13:40,160
he first heard about him looking into

343
00:13:43,910 --> 00:13:42,160
this and you know studying these

344
00:13:46,829 --> 00:13:43,920
abduction cases

345
00:13:50,470 --> 00:13:46,839
and he thought that he must be

346
00:13:52,550 --> 00:13:50,480
crazy you know uh because

347
00:13:54,550 --> 00:13:52,560
of how brilliant he was and everything

348
00:13:57,509 --> 00:13:54,560
and he's spending his time on this

349
00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:57,519
but he slowly realized that that's not

350
00:14:02,550 --> 00:13:58,800
the case

351
00:14:04,470 --> 00:14:02,560
and that he was studying some 90

352
00:14:05,990 --> 00:14:04,480
um cases

353
00:14:06,790 --> 00:14:06,000
john mack was

354
00:14:09,350 --> 00:14:06,800
and

355
00:14:12,629 --> 00:14:09,360
each one of them were sound grounded

356
00:14:15,509 --> 00:14:12,639
intelligent people um that were did not

357
00:14:18,069 --> 00:14:15,519
have mental problems and they all had

358
00:14:20,389 --> 00:14:18,079
these experiences happen to them that

359
00:14:22,550 --> 00:14:20,399
were almost unique um you know to

360
00:14:24,470 --> 00:14:22,560
themselves in

361
00:14:28,069 --> 00:14:24,480
what i look for

362
00:14:29,829 --> 00:14:28,079
in life and in myself is a strength to

363
00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:29,839
go to places

364
00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:32,880
that i may be afraid of going to

365
00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:34,880
because i find that when i do i come out

366
00:14:37,430 --> 00:14:35,760
of it

367
00:14:41,829 --> 00:14:37,440
stronger

368
00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:43,269
you know i'm just always thankful that i

369
00:14:46,949 --> 00:14:45,360
take those risks and you know i'm

370
00:14:49,350 --> 00:14:46,959
staring at one right in the face right

371
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:49,360
now not you literally but

372
00:14:55,269 --> 00:14:50,800
a risk

373
00:14:57,430 --> 00:14:55,279
that's dark and

374
00:14:59,990 --> 00:14:57,440
um i don't know what to do when i get

375
00:15:00,949 --> 00:15:00,000
there but i also know that i have to go

376
00:15:01,829 --> 00:15:00,959
um

377
00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:01,839
so

378
00:15:05,829 --> 00:15:03,760
you know john mack may be

379
00:15:06,550 --> 00:15:05,839
a little bit of a crutch for me to help

380
00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:06,560
me

381
00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:09,920
um you know take that next step that i

382
00:15:13,590 --> 00:15:12,720
think i may have to take so

383
00:15:14,550 --> 00:15:13,600
you know

384
00:15:16,629 --> 00:15:14,560
i don't know if that was a little

385
00:15:18,470 --> 00:15:16,639
long-winded or not but i gave it my best

386
00:15:20,470 --> 00:15:18,480
shot

387
00:15:23,350 --> 00:15:20,480
helpful and and maybe just one

388
00:15:26,949 --> 00:15:23,360
refraining instead of um crutch

389
00:15:28,790 --> 00:15:26,959
inspiration right john i think he really

390
00:15:30,310 --> 00:15:28,800
nicely um

391
00:15:32,150 --> 00:15:30,320
summarized

392
00:15:34,470 --> 00:15:32,160
kind of the energy that

393
00:15:36,389 --> 00:15:34,480
he brought or what he represented you

394
00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:36,399
know in the community and i think he

395
00:15:40,230 --> 00:15:37,360
would

396
00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:40,240
um have been inspired to hear that you

397
00:15:45,350 --> 00:15:43,040
know you that he was an inspiration for

398
00:15:48,150 --> 00:15:45,360
for you that he was all he always

399
00:15:49,030 --> 00:15:48,160
embodied a lot of humility um in terms

400
00:15:51,430 --> 00:15:49,040
of

401
00:15:52,949 --> 00:15:51,440
um trying to understand

402
00:15:54,870 --> 00:15:52,959
you know what the

403
00:15:56,870 --> 00:15:54,880
what the phenomenon was

404
00:15:58,389 --> 00:15:56,880
about as

405
00:16:00,310 --> 00:15:58,399
conveyed to him

406
00:16:02,949 --> 00:16:00,320
experiencers so he

407
00:16:05,269 --> 00:16:02,959
um dedicated i think he dedicated

408
00:16:06,790 --> 00:16:05,279
passport um to us you know saying that

409
00:16:09,189 --> 00:16:06,800
we've been his teachers and he really

410
00:16:11,189 --> 00:16:09,199
related to that so that humility and

411
00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:11,199
warmth and brilliant mind you know that

412
00:16:15,910 --> 00:16:14,000
you talked about are exactly who he was

413
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:15,920
he was a one-of-a-kind a very unique

414
00:16:19,749 --> 00:16:18,959
pedigree in this in this field and i

415
00:16:21,509 --> 00:16:19,759
think

416
00:16:23,829 --> 00:16:21,519
um you know one of the questions we get

417
00:16:26,629 --> 00:16:23,839
to explore now is how to

418
00:16:29,509 --> 00:16:26,639
you know we how does the community build

419
00:16:32,629 --> 00:16:29,519
upon the foundation that that he built

420
00:16:35,590 --> 00:16:32,639
you know and help um kind of

421
00:16:38,230 --> 00:16:35,600
amplify his his legacy and the legacy of

422
00:16:40,069 --> 00:16:38,240
other you know researchers who have you

423
00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:40,079
know contributed a lot to this field

424
00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:43,360
over the course of the past few decades

425
00:16:48,310 --> 00:16:46,320
yeah and some something about him too is

426
00:16:51,749 --> 00:16:48,320
it was another clip that i was watching

427
00:16:53,749 --> 00:16:51,759
of him and he was talking about just

428
00:16:55,189 --> 00:16:53,759
how language is the construct basically

429
00:16:57,030 --> 00:16:55,199
of our reality

430
00:17:00,310 --> 00:16:57,040
you know and

431
00:17:02,829 --> 00:17:00,320
i feel like as as

432
00:17:06,230 --> 00:17:02,839
simple as that may seem or as quick as

433
00:17:07,829 --> 00:17:06,240
it as that may describe something that

434
00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:07,839
much more complex

435
00:17:11,429 --> 00:17:09,280
um

436
00:17:14,309 --> 00:17:11,439
you know that's a very important thing

437
00:17:16,949 --> 00:17:14,319
to to know when you're dealing with just

438
00:17:19,669 --> 00:17:16,959
people every day

439
00:17:22,150 --> 00:17:19,679
to know that your language in the words

440
00:17:24,390 --> 00:17:22,160
you choose can only take you so far and

441
00:17:26,470 --> 00:17:24,400
vice versa it helps you you know portray

442
00:17:28,549 --> 00:17:26,480
empathy to those who may have not

443
00:17:31,430 --> 00:17:28,559
selected the correct words

444
00:17:32,789 --> 00:17:31,440
um and in you know his studies and and

445
00:17:34,549 --> 00:17:32,799
going

446
00:17:35,430 --> 00:17:34,559
the route he did

447
00:17:37,110 --> 00:17:35,440
um

448
00:17:39,430 --> 00:17:37,120
it's no wonder

449
00:17:41,190 --> 00:17:39,440
you know why he was as successful and

450
00:17:42,310 --> 00:17:41,200
loved as he was

451
00:17:43,669 --> 00:17:42,320
because

452
00:17:45,110 --> 00:17:43,679
you know when you understand something

453
00:17:46,470 --> 00:17:45,120
like that you're more

454
00:17:47,990 --> 00:17:46,480
guided by emotion

455
00:17:49,669 --> 00:17:48,000
and and feeling

456
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:49,679
and care

457
00:17:52,310 --> 00:17:50,400
so

458
00:17:54,789 --> 00:17:52,320
i thought that was important too and i

459
00:17:56,950 --> 00:17:54,799
you know i could feel that from from you

460
00:17:58,710 --> 00:17:56,960
guys and that's why i keep coming back

461
00:18:02,310 --> 00:17:58,720
to you i guess you know

462
00:18:04,870 --> 00:18:02,320
um i feel that um

463
00:18:07,350 --> 00:18:04,880
that kind of subconscious

464
00:18:08,070 --> 00:18:07,360
almost connection

465
00:18:09,909 --> 00:18:08,080
or

466
00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:09,919
just where something is flowing

467
00:18:13,669 --> 00:18:12,000
correctly

468
00:18:15,270 --> 00:18:13,679
you know and it touches each other and

469
00:18:17,669 --> 00:18:15,280
it's not complicated

470
00:18:18,710 --> 00:18:17,679
and it just feels good and right

471
00:18:21,909 --> 00:18:18,720
um

472
00:18:23,270 --> 00:18:21,919
and it's hard to find that so

473
00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:23,280
amen

474
00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:24,240
yeah

475
00:18:26,950 --> 00:18:26,080
one of the things that i

476
00:18:31,750 --> 00:18:26,960
i

477
00:18:35,510 --> 00:18:31,760
um john mack's work through passport to

478
00:18:37,430 --> 00:18:35,520
the cosmos um and then abduction

479
00:18:40,830 --> 00:18:37,440
though of course he wrote abduction

480
00:18:43,990 --> 00:18:40,840
before uh passport to the cosmos and

481
00:18:46,390 --> 00:18:44,000
um passport to the cosmos was i believe

482
00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:46,400
the one the la it was the last book he

483
00:18:50,789 --> 00:18:49,360
published before before he passed and

484
00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:50,799
um

485
00:18:53,029 --> 00:18:51,840
to me

486
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:53,039
it's

487
00:18:56,470 --> 00:18:55,679
to me john mack is is

488
00:18:59,270 --> 00:18:56,480
is

489
00:19:01,750 --> 00:18:59,280
and has been the researcher that got the

490
00:19:04,310 --> 00:19:01,760
farthest within this topic

491
00:19:05,350 --> 00:19:04,320
and people are still kind of catching up

492
00:19:07,430 --> 00:19:05,360
to

493
00:19:08,470 --> 00:19:07,440
where he left off

494
00:19:09,750 --> 00:19:08,480
and

495
00:19:12,710 --> 00:19:09,760
so

496
00:19:15,590 --> 00:19:12,720
voice to

497
00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:15,600
in that book that we're talking a lot

498
00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:18,000
about the idea of

499
00:19:23,190 --> 00:19:21,360
these subtle realms and the idea of not

500
00:19:26,150 --> 00:19:23,200
not everything being

501
00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:26,160
in this kind of contiguous

502
00:19:31,350 --> 00:19:28,960
universe this kind of contiguous reality

503
00:19:33,830 --> 00:19:31,360
and then rather than other planets

504
00:19:35,510 --> 00:19:33,840
somebody that sorry jersey city over

505
00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:35,520
here

506
00:19:39,110 --> 00:19:37,520
it could be coming from

507
00:19:39,909 --> 00:19:39,120
could be coming from

508
00:19:41,750 --> 00:19:39,919
uh

509
00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:41,760
you know another frequency another

510
00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:43,840
dimension things like this and then

511
00:19:47,909 --> 00:19:45,520
things could be that subtle and

512
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:47,919
contextualizing things within within the

513
00:19:53,669 --> 00:19:50,240
framework a little bit of of other

514
00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:53,679
cultures spirituality religion folklore

515
00:19:58,230 --> 00:19:56,720
and that really resonated with me it and

516
00:20:01,029 --> 00:19:58,240
i think it resonates with a lot of

517
00:20:02,549 --> 00:20:01,039
experiencers where before that before

518
00:20:04,950 --> 00:20:02,559
that text and even

519
00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:04,960
in abduction along with people like

520
00:20:09,510 --> 00:20:07,280
hopkins people like jacobs and others

521
00:20:12,070 --> 00:20:09,520
that that that

522
00:20:13,909 --> 00:20:12,080
really we're trying to nail down like

523
00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:13,919
okay this happens and this happens and

524
00:20:17,350 --> 00:20:15,600
then this happens like you get floated

525
00:20:18,630 --> 00:20:17,360
through the wall and then this happens

526
00:20:21,029 --> 00:20:18,640
and this happens

527
00:20:22,070 --> 00:20:21,039
like he was trying to get to

528
00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:22,080
to

529
00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:25,280
not just that kind of criminal case work

530
00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:27,200
if you will but

531
00:20:31,669 --> 00:20:29,280
and trying to go beyond

532
00:20:34,710 --> 00:20:31,679
go beyond this kind of like hearty boys

533
00:20:36,870 --> 00:20:34,720
mystery solving aspect and get back even

534
00:20:39,190 --> 00:20:36,880
further than that to

535
00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:39,200
what does this all mean in terms of

536
00:20:44,870 --> 00:20:42,080
ontologies like meaning like what is

537
00:20:46,549 --> 00:20:44,880
your view of reality and what and like

538
00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:46,559
what you were speaking of with regard to

539
00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:49,200
language he did a great job articulating

540
00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:52,240
the sneaky ways that we make basic

541
00:20:57,270 --> 00:20:54,720
assumptions about reality that may not

542
00:21:00,310 --> 00:20:57,280
be true and i think that that is

543
00:21:02,470 --> 00:21:00,320
that continues to be one of the many

544
00:21:04,870 --> 00:21:02,480
great gifts that he's given what is real

545
00:21:07,270 --> 00:21:04,880
right yeah what is real

546
00:21:09,750 --> 00:21:07,280
why is um what we see in front of us

547
00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:09,760
more real than the dreams we have for

548
00:21:14,630 --> 00:21:11,840
instance you know or

549
00:21:18,149 --> 00:21:14,640
the experiences that we encounter what

550
00:21:22,070 --> 00:21:18,159
you know what makes something real is it

551
00:21:24,789 --> 00:21:22,080
our language simply you know or

552
00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:24,799
i would argue that it's

553
00:21:31,270 --> 00:21:28,720
your feelings and your emotions

554
00:21:32,390 --> 00:21:31,280
personally that make things more real to

555
00:21:34,870 --> 00:21:32,400
me

556
00:21:35,750 --> 00:21:34,880
um whether it's in a dream or in real

557
00:21:37,110 --> 00:21:35,760
life

558
00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:37,120
it's

559
00:21:43,830 --> 00:21:40,400
gut

560
00:21:46,310 --> 00:21:43,840
you know that makes something real to me

561
00:21:48,789 --> 00:21:46,320
so i can wake up from a dream in tears

562
00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:48,799
and that thing is real

563
00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:50,480
that happened

564
00:21:56,630 --> 00:21:51,440
you know

565
00:21:59,110 --> 00:21:56,640
for instance

566
00:22:00,710 --> 00:21:59,120
i think these subtle distinctions um

567
00:22:01,750 --> 00:22:00,720
actually have some

568
00:22:04,870 --> 00:22:01,760
uh

569
00:22:07,909 --> 00:22:04,880
you know potentially powerful impact um

570
00:22:10,950 --> 00:22:07,919
on the larger cultural dialogue

571
00:22:13,110 --> 00:22:10,960
in as much as you know there can there's

572
00:22:14,470 --> 00:22:13,120
a lot of discussion and conflict around

573
00:22:17,190 --> 00:22:14,480
whether or not

574
00:22:19,510 --> 00:22:17,200
these experiences happen in reality as

575
00:22:21,430 --> 00:22:19,520
we define it so the five senses you know

576
00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:21,440
newtonian cartesian

577
00:22:25,830 --> 00:22:24,000
um you know definition of reality that

578
00:22:28,390 --> 00:22:25,840
you know most western civilizations are

579
00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:28,400
aligned with um and going back to john

580
00:22:32,630 --> 00:22:30,400
for for just a second you know i think

581
00:22:37,110 --> 00:22:32,640
when he originally started interviewing

582
00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:37,120
experiencers um there was certainly this

583
00:22:40,470 --> 00:22:38,640
as he began to see that there was an

584
00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:40,480
actual phenomena occurring and that

585
00:22:44,950 --> 00:22:42,960
experiencers were reporting um

586
00:22:47,190 --> 00:22:44,960
accurately to the best of our ability

587
00:22:48,870 --> 00:22:47,200
what appeared to john to be real

588
00:22:50,070 --> 00:22:48,880
experience and for us was real

589
00:22:50,950 --> 00:22:50,080
experience

590
00:22:52,310 --> 00:22:50,960
um

591
00:22:54,549 --> 00:22:52,320
you know and i think abduction as you

592
00:22:56,470 --> 00:22:54,559
point out reflects that kind of more

593
00:22:59,029 --> 00:22:56,480
nuts and bolts

594
00:23:01,350 --> 00:22:59,039
um aspect of it and

595
00:23:03,669 --> 00:23:01,360
attempt to find the grounding

596
00:23:05,750 --> 00:23:03,679
of these narratives in reality what he

597
00:23:08,549 --> 00:23:05,760
discovered you know the more he

598
00:23:10,710 --> 00:23:08,559
interviewed um experiencers and got

599
00:23:11,909 --> 00:23:10,720
deeper into the research is that it

600
00:23:13,669 --> 00:23:11,919
became

601
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:13,679
you know clear that there are these

602
00:23:18,149 --> 00:23:15,200
subtle realms

603
00:23:20,789 --> 00:23:18,159
of reality that were present but that

604
00:23:21,590 --> 00:23:20,799
didn't you know fit the the narrative of

605
00:23:23,669 --> 00:23:21,600
our

606
00:23:25,430 --> 00:23:23,679
you know the the mainstream paradigm you

607
00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:25,440
know the worldview that most of us are

608
00:23:30,710 --> 00:23:28,480
are born into in in the west and so

609
00:23:32,470 --> 00:23:30,720
you know as as a personal friend of his

610
00:23:35,029 --> 00:23:32,480
as well he you know he and i had a lot

611
00:23:36,870 --> 00:23:35,039
of conversations on the side especially

612
00:23:39,190 --> 00:23:36,880
as he got close to the end of his life

613
00:23:41,430 --> 00:23:39,200
where we would sort of tease apart you

614
00:23:44,549 --> 00:23:41,440
know the the subtleties in language that

615
00:23:46,710 --> 00:23:44,559
you're speaking to and of you know where

616
00:23:48,470 --> 00:23:46,720
reality exists and he

617
00:23:49,669 --> 00:23:48,480
you know got to this place where he was

618
00:23:52,950 --> 00:23:49,679
actually more

619
00:23:55,190 --> 00:23:52,960
aligned with you know ideas like patrick

620
00:23:57,350 --> 00:23:55,200
patrick harper and demonic reality where

621
00:23:59,590 --> 00:23:57,360
this you know maybe these experiences

622
00:24:02,789 --> 00:23:59,600
were happening you know in a realm that

623
00:24:05,430 --> 00:24:02,799
was familiar to humans historically as

624
00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:05,440
along with succuby and incubi and things

625
00:24:07,110 --> 00:24:06,400
like that

626
00:24:08,630 --> 00:24:07,120
so

627
00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:08,640
there's it's you know from my

628
00:24:11,590 --> 00:24:10,240
perspective it was very understandable

629
00:24:13,750 --> 00:24:11,600
that he would get to that point

630
00:24:15,669 --> 00:24:13,760
especially as someone who was a witness

631
00:24:18,070 --> 00:24:15,679
um to people who had gone through this

632
00:24:20,230 --> 00:24:18,080
you know um and not somebody who had

633
00:24:23,350 --> 00:24:20,240
experiences firsthand

634
00:24:25,510 --> 00:24:23,360
that being said i would wrestle

635
00:24:27,750 --> 00:24:25,520
wrestle with him in the conversation

636
00:24:29,669 --> 00:24:27,760
because even though all of that's true

637
00:24:31,990 --> 00:24:29,679
that it feels like some of these

638
00:24:35,110 --> 00:24:32,000
experiences are are happening in some

639
00:24:37,430 --> 00:24:35,120
form of reality that is far expanded

640
00:24:39,269 --> 00:24:37,440
from what we originally know as we're

641
00:24:41,190 --> 00:24:39,279
sitting here talking to each other again

642
00:24:43,590 --> 00:24:41,200
the five senses reality

643
00:24:46,390 --> 00:24:43,600
um there are also experiences that take

644
00:24:48,630 --> 00:24:46,400
place in this very physical world and

645
00:24:51,190 --> 00:24:48,640
have a very physical element to them and

646
00:24:52,630 --> 00:24:51,200
have physical consequences and

647
00:24:55,029 --> 00:24:52,640
make physical

648
00:24:57,110 --> 00:24:55,039
impressions you know either in objects

649
00:24:58,390 --> 00:24:57,120
or our bodies or in our minds in this

650
00:25:01,990 --> 00:24:58,400
world so

651
00:25:04,070 --> 00:25:02,000
i think the experiencer community um

652
00:25:07,029 --> 00:25:04,080
growing up in a way over these past two

653
00:25:10,070 --> 00:25:07,039
or three decades and realizing that

654
00:25:13,110 --> 00:25:10,080
how we language our experiences

655
00:25:15,669 --> 00:25:13,120
especially to mainstream audiences

656
00:25:17,669 --> 00:25:15,679
and a mainstream listener really matters

657
00:25:19,510 --> 00:25:17,679
because the more we're discerning about

658
00:25:21,669 --> 00:25:19,520
how we communicate this

659
00:25:24,710 --> 00:25:21,679
to people who are unfamiliar with the

660
00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:24,720
phenomenon or are skeptical about it

661
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:26,880
has everything to do with how well we

662
00:25:31,990 --> 00:25:29,120
are received as a credible witness or

663
00:25:34,470 --> 00:25:32,000
not we have to be able to discern how

664
00:25:36,230 --> 00:25:34,480
our listener is receiving it or

665
00:25:38,710 --> 00:25:36,240
resisting it and at the place where we

666
00:25:41,029 --> 00:25:38,720
meet that tension of resistance i think

667
00:25:43,029 --> 00:25:41,039
that is is really fundamentally where

668
00:25:45,269 --> 00:25:43,039
john's work left off at the time of his

669
00:25:47,510 --> 00:25:45,279
death it's where our world views you

670
00:25:49,669 --> 00:25:47,520
know collide and we reach the limits of

671
00:25:51,430 --> 00:25:49,679
what we believe is possible and this is

672
00:25:53,510 --> 00:25:51,440
where normally you know the listener

673
00:25:56,630 --> 00:25:53,520
might start to say that well you know

674
00:25:58,310 --> 00:25:56,640
it's sleep paralysis or some kind of

675
00:26:00,390 --> 00:25:58,320
kind of

676
00:26:02,070 --> 00:26:00,400
defined psychopathology or something

677
00:26:03,830 --> 00:26:02,080
like that and really

678
00:26:05,269 --> 00:26:03,840
i think where the experience your

679
00:26:06,950 --> 00:26:05,279
community is required to sort of pull

680
00:26:08,950 --> 00:26:06,960
back a little bit and get to the point

681
00:26:10,630 --> 00:26:08,960
where the blockage is that we can really

682
00:26:13,110 --> 00:26:10,640
slow down and talk about why we're

683
00:26:16,070 --> 00:26:13,120
experiencing these resistances to the

684
00:26:18,149 --> 00:26:16,080
reception of what we have to say

685
00:26:20,549 --> 00:26:18,159
i don't know if that makes you feel like

686
00:26:21,909 --> 00:26:20,559
yeah it does uh the one thing i think of

687
00:26:23,430 --> 00:26:21,919
is

688
00:26:25,830 --> 00:26:23,440
you know do you

689
00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:25,840
or why do you think it is the

690
00:26:32,230 --> 00:26:30,080
um requirement of the experiencer to

691
00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:32,240
put things in a certain way so that

692
00:26:38,390 --> 00:26:35,840
others can grasp it correctly

693
00:26:40,950 --> 00:26:38,400
i think it depends on what it depends on

694
00:26:43,110 --> 00:26:40,960
what the context is and and what the

695
00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:43,120
intention is of the conversation there

696
00:26:47,669 --> 00:26:45,200
are certain contexts where

697
00:26:49,669 --> 00:26:47,679
an experiencer has been

698
00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:49,679
presented with the task of just

699
00:26:53,669 --> 00:26:51,600
conveying their narrative

700
00:26:55,510 --> 00:26:53,679
and and sometimes that's just a one-way

701
00:26:57,669 --> 00:26:55,520
street and it's important

702
00:26:59,590 --> 00:26:57,679
that an experiencer feels comfortable in

703
00:27:01,750 --> 00:26:59,600
in that moment to just say what they

704
00:27:04,070 --> 00:27:01,760
have been asked to say and you know

705
00:27:06,390 --> 00:27:04,080
obviously the the listener receives it

706
00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:06,400
in whatever way they do larger audiences

707
00:27:11,269 --> 00:27:08,720
are an example of that somebody watching

708
00:27:13,909 --> 00:27:11,279
a series on tv would be an example of

709
00:27:17,269 --> 00:27:13,919
that you know it lands however it lands

710
00:27:19,590 --> 00:27:17,279
um if we have an intention

711
00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:19,600
to try to

712
00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:22,000
you know work with people who are the

713
00:27:26,630 --> 00:27:24,000
scientists researchers

714
00:27:27,990 --> 00:27:26,640
investigators you know academicians in

715
00:27:30,630 --> 00:27:28,000
the mainstream

716
00:27:33,430 --> 00:27:30,640
and we really want to you know be a part

717
00:27:36,310 --> 00:27:33,440
of helping to shape the narrative of

718
00:27:39,590 --> 00:27:36,320
what this phenomenon is about then it's

719
00:27:41,029 --> 00:27:39,600
critically important that we slow down

720
00:27:44,389 --> 00:27:41,039
and make sure

721
00:27:45,190 --> 00:27:44,399
uh or explore the places where we start

722
00:27:48,389 --> 00:27:45,200
to

723
00:27:50,149 --> 00:27:48,399
meet that resistance because therein you

724
00:27:53,190 --> 00:27:50,159
know lies

725
00:27:54,870 --> 00:27:53,200
the the ability or inability for us to

726
00:27:56,950 --> 00:27:54,880
create an opening

727
00:27:59,350 --> 00:27:56,960
where our narratives can either be

728
00:28:01,909 --> 00:27:59,360
received or not received and so it

729
00:28:03,990 --> 00:28:01,919
matters in those contexts it's all

730
00:28:06,149 --> 00:28:04,000
intent right yeah

731
00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:06,159
beautiful love it

732
00:28:09,350 --> 00:28:07,200
and

733
00:28:11,350 --> 00:28:09,360
along those lines uh along the lines of

734
00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:11,360
what karna is saying i think that it's

735
00:28:16,470 --> 00:28:15,120
it's and i completely 100 agree with her

736
00:28:19,029 --> 00:28:16,480
that that

737
00:28:20,310 --> 00:28:19,039
there are these conversations that

738
00:28:22,470 --> 00:28:20,320
that

739
00:28:24,870 --> 00:28:22,480
don't necessarily need to happen but

740
00:28:26,389 --> 00:28:24,880
they often benefit from happening behind

741
00:28:27,909 --> 00:28:26,399
the curtain

742
00:28:30,310 --> 00:28:27,919
in these private scenarios where

743
00:28:32,549 --> 00:28:30,320
experiencers can compare notes and then

744
00:28:34,789 --> 00:28:32,559
and they can come together and say you

745
00:28:38,149 --> 00:28:34,799
know what like this this this and this

746
00:28:39,990 --> 00:28:38,159
happened and then and then the the the

747
00:28:41,510 --> 00:28:40,000
forward facing the public facing

748
00:28:42,549 --> 00:28:41,520
conversation

749
00:28:45,669 --> 00:28:42,559
it

750
00:28:48,149 --> 00:28:45,679
we don't want to have any data lost i

751
00:28:51,590 --> 00:28:48,159
think that one thing that we recognize

752
00:28:54,389 --> 00:28:51,600
is that for for several generations now

753
00:28:55,669 --> 00:28:54,399
um going back to kenneth arnold and even

754
00:28:58,470 --> 00:28:55,679
before

755
00:29:00,389 --> 00:28:58,480
there there was a

756
00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:00,399
i won't say astroturfing but there was

757
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:03,440
an element of of kind of like taking out

758
00:29:08,789 --> 00:29:05,760
all of the erratic details

759
00:29:12,630 --> 00:29:08,799
that actually flesh out these cases

760
00:29:14,149 --> 00:29:12,640
right so so often you know a a contact

761
00:29:20,710 --> 00:29:14,159
case

762
00:29:23,029 --> 00:29:20,720
that is sometimes prefigured by

763
00:29:25,029 --> 00:29:23,039
something like a precognitive dream as

764
00:29:28,549 --> 00:29:25,039
some people might be aware of and then

765
00:29:29,909 --> 00:29:28,559
other and then in other situations

766
00:29:32,310 --> 00:29:29,919
you know there's other ways that these

767
00:29:34,630 --> 00:29:32,320
things are highlighted for example

768
00:29:37,430 --> 00:29:34,640
uh i think in arnold's case for example

769
00:29:39,430 --> 00:29:37,440
he he saw orbs in his house after after

770
00:29:41,750 --> 00:29:39,440
seeing after reporting his ufo

771
00:29:44,149 --> 00:29:41,760
encounters and for years

772
00:29:46,470 --> 00:29:44,159
those would be erased

773
00:29:48,630 --> 00:29:46,480
from the public discourse and would even

774
00:29:51,590 --> 00:29:48,640
be taken out of the books that taken out

775
00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:51,600
of the literature um because it was seen

776
00:29:57,590 --> 00:29:54,880
often to be something that negated the

777
00:29:59,269 --> 00:29:57,600
veracity of the accounts or it'd be

778
00:30:00,710 --> 00:29:59,279
something that would be used against

779
00:30:03,350 --> 00:30:00,720
these people

780
00:30:05,029 --> 00:30:03,360
but and but overall it also meant that

781
00:30:07,029 --> 00:30:05,039
we are losing data

782
00:30:10,389 --> 00:30:07,039
and so there there needs to be a

783
00:30:11,350 --> 00:30:10,399
situation where we we can kind of meet

784
00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:11,360
people

785
00:30:14,710 --> 00:30:13,360
on a certain level and forward-facing

786
00:30:18,389 --> 00:30:14,720
conversations public facing

787
00:30:20,470 --> 00:30:18,399
conversations but we make and we also

788
00:30:22,870 --> 00:30:20,480
and we don't lie about what's happened

789
00:30:25,750 --> 00:30:22,880
but maybe you know that the element

790
00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:25,760
where there's the precognitive dream and

791
00:30:29,750 --> 00:30:28,720
then the ufo happens or things like that

792
00:30:35,669 --> 00:30:29,760
that

793
00:30:38,310 --> 00:30:35,679
within our community but i think what

794
00:30:40,549 --> 00:30:38,320
karen may also be speaking towards and

795
00:30:42,630 --> 00:30:40,559
what she directly experienced herself

796
00:30:43,590 --> 00:30:42,640
and her work with john before john

797
00:30:46,389 --> 00:30:43,600
passed

798
00:30:49,510 --> 00:30:46,399
was that john would get burned by going

799
00:30:51,029 --> 00:30:49,520
on to like oprah right and then and then

800
00:30:53,110 --> 00:30:51,039
oprah's producers trying to

801
00:30:55,590 --> 00:30:53,120
sensationalize everything and turn it

802
00:30:57,830 --> 00:30:55,600
into hybrid babies and and reptilians

803
00:30:59,750 --> 00:30:57,840
and all this kind of stuff yeah i

804
00:31:02,830 --> 00:30:59,760
actually you touched on that in your

805
00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:02,840
podcast on uh youtube that you guys did

806
00:31:08,549 --> 00:31:06,480
together um about how um i forget what

807
00:31:11,990 --> 00:31:08,559
her name was nadine is it

808
00:31:14,149 --> 00:31:12,000
um was talking about how

809
00:31:15,990 --> 00:31:14,159
you know she was thrown into some

810
00:31:17,110 --> 00:31:16,000
interview situations

811
00:31:18,630 --> 00:31:17,120
i don't want to say maybe that's the

812
00:31:20,070 --> 00:31:18,640
wrong choice where it's thrown but she

813
00:31:23,110 --> 00:31:20,080
was in these

814
00:31:24,870 --> 00:31:23,120
and she was still figuring out you know

815
00:31:26,549 --> 00:31:24,880
a lot about this and where she sat with

816
00:31:29,110 --> 00:31:26,559
it and what it all meant

817
00:31:33,029 --> 00:31:29,120
um and a lot of the times they're just

818
00:31:34,710 --> 00:31:33,039
trying to sensationalize the story um

819
00:31:35,909 --> 00:31:34,720
and it wound up being a really bad

820
00:31:37,590 --> 00:31:35,919
situation

821
00:31:39,509 --> 00:31:37,600
that's my experience as well so i don't

822
00:31:41,509 --> 00:31:39,519
i don't know if if jay had the chance to

823
00:31:45,029 --> 00:31:41,519
share this with you but um

824
00:31:46,789 --> 00:31:45,039
i was one of the experiencers that john

825
00:31:49,830 --> 00:31:46,799
used to work with in terms of public

826
00:31:52,230 --> 00:31:49,840
education so i had the experience along

827
00:31:54,230 --> 00:31:52,240
with john and like nadine of going out

828
00:31:56,630 --> 00:31:54,240
there and being front and center

829
00:31:58,950 --> 00:31:56,640
and you know presenting you know sort of

830
00:32:00,870 --> 00:31:58,960
the unadulterated versions or various

831
00:32:03,509 --> 00:32:00,880
chapters of my

832
00:32:06,389 --> 00:32:03,519
narrative to audience of various sizes

833
00:32:08,710 --> 00:32:06,399
and in various places and you know

834
00:32:10,389 --> 00:32:08,720
found after a number of years that you

835
00:32:11,909 --> 00:32:10,399
know the outcome was fairly predictable

836
00:32:12,710 --> 00:32:11,919
there were certainly always people who

837
00:32:14,789 --> 00:32:12,720
were

838
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:14,799
in the audience who are open-minded and

839
00:32:18,710 --> 00:32:17,279
you know we consider sort of friendly to

840
00:32:21,350 --> 00:32:18,720
to the idea

841
00:32:24,070 --> 00:32:21,360
um but generally speaking most people go

842
00:32:25,830 --> 00:32:24,080
away after hearing hearing the narrative

843
00:32:28,630 --> 00:32:25,840
and and think you know that's just so

844
00:32:31,669 --> 00:32:28,640
far beyond anything that

845
00:32:33,990 --> 00:32:31,679
seems rational or reasonable that you

846
00:32:35,430 --> 00:32:34,000
know that what's like what can they do

847
00:32:37,590 --> 00:32:35,440
with that there's not a whole lot they

848
00:32:39,750 --> 00:32:37,600
can attach to it other than it might be

849
00:32:40,870 --> 00:32:39,760
an interesting sort of x-file episode in

850
00:32:42,310 --> 00:32:40,880
their brain

851
00:32:44,149 --> 00:32:42,320
and then they're kind of left to just

852
00:32:46,310 --> 00:32:44,159
get on with their life you know and

853
00:32:48,549 --> 00:32:46,320
that's sort of the best case scenario in

854
00:32:49,830 --> 00:32:48,559
worst case scenarios there you know

855
00:32:51,509 --> 00:32:49,840
there are plenty of interviews that i

856
00:32:53,669 --> 00:32:51,519
did you know where they

857
00:32:56,149 --> 00:32:53,679
you know the interviewer shows up

858
00:32:58,470 --> 00:32:56,159
seemingly in a friendly way and it turns

859
00:33:00,630 --> 00:32:58,480
out you know once the the piece is out

860
00:33:02,710 --> 00:33:00,640
that it's just sort of um you know it's

861
00:33:05,509 --> 00:33:02,720
a tongue-in-cheek kind of caricature

862
00:33:07,990 --> 00:33:05,519
version of what the experience is and so

863
00:33:10,389 --> 00:33:08,000
it's after a while of being out there

864
00:33:12,630 --> 00:33:10,399
like that and not being able to be taken

865
00:33:14,630 --> 00:33:12,640
seriously if not believe that i think a

866
00:33:18,470 --> 00:33:14,640
lot of us don't need to be believed but

867
00:33:20,549 --> 00:33:18,480
the distinction of being taken seriously

868
00:33:21,990 --> 00:33:20,559
and and to not be taken seriously when

869
00:33:24,149 --> 00:33:22,000
we're talking about one of the most

870
00:33:26,630 --> 00:33:24,159
profound implications for humankind at

871
00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:26,640
least in terms of our our history so far

872
00:33:29,830 --> 00:33:28,960
maybe beyond sliced bread and fire i

873
00:33:31,909 --> 00:33:29,840
don't know

874
00:33:33,669 --> 00:33:31,919
you know that's really important

875
00:33:34,630 --> 00:33:33,679
you know inventions

876
00:33:41,509 --> 00:33:34,640
but to

877
00:33:47,509 --> 00:33:44,710
not be taken seriously is is stunting

878
00:33:49,590 --> 00:33:47,519
our development you know and and that's

879
00:33:51,830 --> 00:33:49,600
where i think we need to pivot this

880
00:33:53,430 --> 00:33:51,840
conversation the community needs to help

881
00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:53,440
pivot the conversation it's like it's

882
00:33:57,909 --> 00:33:55,440
okay if everyone doesn't believe but we

883
00:33:58,789 --> 00:33:57,919
need to take a serious look at this

884
00:34:00,549 --> 00:33:58,799
that's

885
00:34:02,950 --> 00:34:00,559
a great point go ahead jay

886
00:34:04,230 --> 00:34:02,960
and i think that's i think i i want to i

887
00:34:07,590 --> 00:34:04,240
would love to hear what you have to say

888
00:34:09,190 --> 00:34:07,600
about this sean but uh just for me i i

889
00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:09,200
completely agree with karen and i think

890
00:34:12,869 --> 00:34:10,720
that there's this kind of middle ground

891
00:34:14,550 --> 00:34:12,879
that we're working on right now and

892
00:34:18,069 --> 00:34:14,560
hopefully it doesn't always have to be

893
00:34:20,790 --> 00:34:18,079
like this but this situation where we

894
00:34:22,790 --> 00:34:20,800
we establish ourselves as a as

895
00:34:25,510 --> 00:34:22,800
thoughtful people either behind the

896
00:34:27,909 --> 00:34:25,520
scenes or or out there and then the

897
00:34:30,149 --> 00:34:27,919
story comes out right and

898
00:34:32,069 --> 00:34:30,159
and let that happen with me in some ways

899
00:34:33,990 --> 00:34:32,079
that happened with you as well sean or

900
00:34:35,750 --> 00:34:34,000
is happening with you and it happens

901
00:34:36,550 --> 00:34:35,760
with others as well and

902
00:34:38,550 --> 00:34:36,560
um

903
00:34:39,909 --> 00:34:38,560
in some ways it's unfortunate that

904
00:34:43,430 --> 00:34:39,919
people can't be

905
00:34:45,589 --> 00:34:43,440
just taken on the merits of of what they

906
00:34:47,589 --> 00:34:45,599
of reported and things like that but

907
00:34:49,990 --> 00:34:47,599
there's also there there's so much

908
00:34:50,869 --> 00:34:50,000
nuance that happens when

909
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:50,879
when

910
00:34:55,030 --> 00:34:53,280
we're able to

911
00:34:57,670 --> 00:34:55,040
i think one part is that that

912
00:35:00,230 --> 00:34:57,680
experiences you want to be heard and you

913
00:35:03,270 --> 00:35:00,240
want to be heard for what you're feeling

914
00:35:05,990 --> 00:35:03,280
and thinking about this stuff how you

915
00:35:08,069 --> 00:35:06,000
have quietly processed this information

916
00:35:09,349 --> 00:35:08,079
what how like where you're where your

917
00:35:12,470 --> 00:35:09,359
head's at where you're trying to move

918
00:35:14,870 --> 00:35:12,480
forward with it and and people get so

919
00:35:17,670 --> 00:35:14,880
hung up on the details of

920
00:35:20,630 --> 00:35:17,680
of what happens back when you were 15 or

921
00:35:21,430 --> 00:35:20,640
25 or something like that that it can it

922
00:35:23,510 --> 00:35:21,440
can

923
00:35:25,030 --> 00:35:23,520
once they hear that

924
00:35:27,190 --> 00:35:25,040
that's what they want to hear

925
00:35:27,990 --> 00:35:27,200
that or that has often been the case

926
00:35:32,870 --> 00:35:28,000
where

927
00:35:33,829 --> 00:35:32,880
you when you start with your process

928
00:35:34,630 --> 00:35:33,839
thoughts

929
00:35:37,109 --> 00:35:34,640
then

930
00:35:38,710 --> 00:35:37,119
people get acclimated to like oh this

931
00:35:40,710 --> 00:35:38,720
person you know this is a thoughtful

932
00:35:44,390 --> 00:35:40,720
person that has something to say

933
00:35:46,550 --> 00:35:44,400
oh and they also have this incredibly

934
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:46,560
wild series of chapters in their life

935
00:35:52,470 --> 00:35:49,040
that that that color in

936
00:35:53,510 --> 00:35:52,480
um and inform that thought

937
00:35:54,790 --> 00:35:53,520
yeah

938
00:35:56,790 --> 00:35:54,800
no i just

939
00:35:58,390 --> 00:35:56,800
i think it's so spot on

940
00:35:59,829 --> 00:35:58,400
to say that

941
00:36:02,150 --> 00:35:59,839
you know and i've i've caught myself

942
00:36:03,829 --> 00:36:02,160
saying this before that's why

943
00:36:06,150 --> 00:36:03,839
like my ears kind of perked when i heard

944
00:36:07,270 --> 00:36:06,160
it it's like you don't have to believe

945
00:36:10,230 --> 00:36:07,280
me

946
00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:10,240
to just be kind to be nice

947
00:36:13,829 --> 00:36:11,760
and respectful

948
00:36:16,310 --> 00:36:13,839
you don't you don't have to believe me

949
00:36:18,550 --> 00:36:16,320
you don't have to believe experiencers

950
00:36:19,750 --> 00:36:18,560
to just be respectful

951
00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:19,760
you know and

952
00:36:25,510 --> 00:36:23,520
that alone would be just incredibly

953
00:36:28,069 --> 00:36:25,520
helpful and who knows to the person

954
00:36:30,790 --> 00:36:28,079
who's showing the respect that

955
00:36:32,790 --> 00:36:30,800
maybe because they turn their analytic

956
00:36:34,950 --> 00:36:32,800
brain off for a second

957
00:36:36,790 --> 00:36:34,960
and do show respect

958
00:36:38,310 --> 00:36:36,800
um maybe they learn something about

959
00:36:41,510 --> 00:36:38,320
themselves

960
00:36:44,950 --> 00:36:41,520
you know in in some way

961
00:36:50,710 --> 00:36:48,390
again evaluating your audience is a is a

962
00:36:53,270 --> 00:36:50,720
critical part of maintaining

963
00:36:55,109 --> 00:36:53,280
um one's own sense of safety

964
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:55,119
as as an experiencer even though we'd

965
00:36:59,190 --> 00:36:56,560
like to be able to kind of talk to

966
00:37:01,990 --> 00:36:59,200
whoever about it at least in theory the

967
00:37:03,510 --> 00:37:02,000
reality is is that you know being

968
00:37:06,550 --> 00:37:03,520
being forthcoming in the wrong

969
00:37:09,190 --> 00:37:06,560
circumstances can create any number of

970
00:37:11,349 --> 00:37:09,200
problems either to very severe or just

971
00:37:13,190 --> 00:37:11,359
you know kind of inconvenient so

972
00:37:15,349 --> 00:37:13,200
you know there's a kind of quality of

973
00:37:18,870 --> 00:37:15,359
emotional intelligence that's required

974
00:37:20,310 --> 00:37:18,880
to to be able to use discernment um to

975
00:37:22,550 --> 00:37:20,320
know like okay this is a safe

976
00:37:24,710 --> 00:37:22,560
environment where i can kind of download

977
00:37:26,230 --> 00:37:24,720
this i think this is one of the reasons

978
00:37:28,150 --> 00:37:26,240
why um

979
00:37:30,950 --> 00:37:28,160
the experiencer group that you know jay

980
00:37:33,190 --> 00:37:30,960
kristen kristen and stewart have created

981
00:37:36,550 --> 00:37:33,200
is is so important and groups like it

982
00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:36,560
where experiences can go in and and not

983
00:37:40,870 --> 00:37:39,440
have to worry about the high strangeness

984
00:37:42,950 --> 00:37:40,880
of what we're saying we know that we're

985
00:37:45,349 --> 00:37:42,960
not going to be judged for that and and

986
00:37:47,510 --> 00:37:45,359
that is a completely safe environment in

987
00:37:50,550 --> 00:37:47,520
terms of whether or not we communicate

988
00:37:52,069 --> 00:37:50,560
that to the outer world um i'm actually

989
00:37:54,950 --> 00:37:52,079
in a position

990
00:37:57,430 --> 00:37:54,960
you know some 30 years on in this where

991
00:37:59,990 --> 00:37:57,440
i don't if i never had to tell my story

992
00:38:01,910 --> 00:38:00,000
again i'd be happy about that i don't

993
00:38:04,550 --> 00:38:01,920
have that need inside of me to say it

994
00:38:05,910 --> 00:38:04,560
out loud before i'm much more

995
00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:05,920
in the place of

996
00:38:12,630 --> 00:38:09,440
you know trying being

997
00:38:14,870 --> 00:38:12,640
um focused on helping to build uh the

998
00:38:17,109 --> 00:38:14,880
the framing around the foundations that

999
00:38:19,829 --> 00:38:17,119
the our our forebears

1000
00:38:21,829 --> 00:38:19,839
are um you know have the the original

1001
00:38:23,750 --> 00:38:21,839
researchers that are sort of aging out

1002
00:38:25,829 --> 00:38:23,760
at this point you know we

1003
00:38:28,390 --> 00:38:25,839
they have created a foundation for us

1004
00:38:31,430 --> 00:38:28,400
and i think the question becomes now how

1005
00:38:33,030 --> 00:38:31,440
do we build upon that foundation and how

1006
00:38:35,670 --> 00:38:33,040
do we come together as a community to

1007
00:38:37,190 --> 00:38:35,680
get clear on our vision on on how we

1008
00:38:38,870 --> 00:38:37,200
want to move forward with that and

1009
00:38:40,870 --> 00:38:38,880
obviously there's no one right way to do

1010
00:38:42,710 --> 00:38:40,880
it but that's kind of where i'm at at

1011
00:38:44,230 --> 00:38:42,720
the moment and you know like and i think

1012
00:38:46,310 --> 00:38:44,240
that goes back to what you said jay

1013
00:38:48,470 --> 00:38:46,320
about finding a middle ground there's a

1014
00:38:50,069 --> 00:38:48,480
lot of titration and you know moving

1015
00:38:51,829 --> 00:38:50,079
along the spectrum back and forth

1016
00:38:53,030 --> 00:38:51,839
depending on context for a lot of

1017
00:38:55,349 --> 00:38:53,040
different things

1018
00:39:00,870 --> 00:38:58,390
absolutely there's there's you know

1019
00:39:02,470 --> 00:39:00,880
the idea of

1020
00:39:04,470 --> 00:39:02,480
you know we're not the uh

1021
00:39:06,069 --> 00:39:04,480
we're certainly not the originators of

1022
00:39:09,750 --> 00:39:06,079
of the

1023
00:39:11,349 --> 00:39:09,760
the problems or or realities of quote

1024
00:39:13,270 --> 00:39:11,359
unquote coming out of the closet you

1025
00:39:17,349 --> 00:39:13,280
know there are many different

1026
00:39:20,790 --> 00:39:17,359
types of of situations where where

1027
00:39:23,910 --> 00:39:20,800
where society has had to acclimate to

1028
00:39:27,510 --> 00:39:23,920
the reality of someone's inner life

1029
00:39:30,950 --> 00:39:27,520
right and mo and all of us in this in

1030
00:39:33,750 --> 00:39:30,960
this stream yard room uh remember

1031
00:39:36,870 --> 00:39:33,760
how many strides have been made by the

1032
00:39:39,190 --> 00:39:36,880
lgbt community for example in terms of

1033
00:39:41,270 --> 00:39:39,200
of being like no we're actually we're

1034
00:39:43,109 --> 00:39:41,280
here we exist and you're probably

1035
00:39:44,470 --> 00:39:43,119
related to one of us you know that whole

1036
00:39:45,349 --> 00:39:44,480
situation

1037
00:39:48,710 --> 00:39:45,359
um

1038
00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:48,720
and uh and we're not in the same boat

1039
00:39:53,829 --> 00:39:51,040
but it's not completely dissimilar

1040
00:39:55,270 --> 00:39:53,839
right and so and so there's there's a

1041
00:39:56,790 --> 00:39:55,280
lot within

1042
00:39:59,829 --> 00:39:56,800
that what you're talking about that

1043
00:40:02,470 --> 00:39:59,839
titration and the the the idea of trying

1044
00:40:04,550 --> 00:40:02,480
to meet somebody in the middle or trying

1045
00:40:07,670 --> 00:40:04,560
to to kind of massage these

1046
00:40:09,750 --> 00:40:07,680
conversations or as or as stuart would

1047
00:40:11,910 --> 00:40:09,760
put would put it because he is as he

1048
00:40:14,550 --> 00:40:11,920
says spiritually promiscuous the

1049
00:40:16,710 --> 00:40:14,560
conversational lubricant that might make

1050
00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:16,720
a situation like this happen

1051
00:40:19,910 --> 00:40:17,520
right

1052
00:40:20,790 --> 00:40:19,920
i can't wait to talk to him

1053
00:40:24,150 --> 00:40:20,800
yeah

1054
00:40:26,470 --> 00:40:24,160
and and so and so you know there are

1055
00:40:28,230 --> 00:40:26,480
times where where people talk about

1056
00:40:28,950 --> 00:40:28,240
um

1057
00:40:29,670 --> 00:40:28,960
in

1058
00:40:31,190 --> 00:40:29,680
when

1059
00:40:33,030 --> 00:40:31,200
mixing into another part of the

1060
00:40:35,510 --> 00:40:33,040
community or being or

1061
00:40:38,390 --> 00:40:35,520
or taking part in that that

1062
00:40:41,430 --> 00:40:38,400
there's there's that off there's that

1063
00:40:43,829 --> 00:40:41,440
off discussed uh situation of code

1064
00:40:46,950 --> 00:40:43,839
switching the idea that that

1065
00:40:50,870 --> 00:40:46,960
that you have to manage your language

1066
00:40:52,470 --> 00:40:50,880
given the the type of given

1067
00:40:55,190 --> 00:40:52,480
you know reading the room

1068
00:40:57,589 --> 00:40:55,200
essentially and and being able to manage

1069
00:40:59,829 --> 00:40:57,599
that and that and there's been whole

1070
00:41:02,870 --> 00:40:59,839
books written about that in terms of of

1071
00:41:05,510 --> 00:41:02,880
the frustrations and the the minor

1072
00:41:09,109 --> 00:41:05,520
traumas that that it can cause and the

1073
00:41:11,510 --> 00:41:09,119
the the management of ontologies the

1074
00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:11,520
management of realities and being able

1075
00:41:14,790 --> 00:41:13,680
to kind of dance back and forth one of

1076
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:14,800
the things that we talk about on the

1077
00:41:20,150 --> 00:41:17,760
experience group often is the the

1078
00:41:22,870 --> 00:41:20,160
situation of

1079
00:41:24,790 --> 00:41:22,880
experiencers are often

1080
00:41:26,790 --> 00:41:24,800
natural synthesis

1081
00:41:27,829 --> 00:41:26,800
right because we

1082
00:41:33,349 --> 00:41:27,839
we

1083
00:41:34,790 --> 00:41:33,359
in like the newspaper reality of the

1084
00:41:35,750 --> 00:41:34,800
world like the version that we read

1085
00:41:37,589 --> 00:41:35,760
about

1086
00:41:38,710 --> 00:41:37,599
you know on cnn or wherever the heck we

1087
00:41:39,829 --> 00:41:38,720
get our news

1088
00:41:40,710 --> 00:41:39,839
and then

1089
00:41:47,190 --> 00:41:40,720
and

1090
00:41:49,990 --> 00:41:47,200
the reality that we live in

1091
00:41:50,790 --> 00:41:50,000
at 3 30 in the morning or whatever you

1092
00:41:53,349 --> 00:41:50,800
know

1093
00:41:54,069 --> 00:41:53,359
right and then and we have those feet

1094
00:41:55,829 --> 00:41:54,079
but

1095
00:41:57,990 --> 00:41:55,839
the legs have to go somewhere we have to

1096
00:42:00,790 --> 00:41:58,000
we have to synthesize this and to we

1097
00:42:02,870 --> 00:42:00,800
have to use both of these foundations if

1098
00:42:05,109 --> 00:42:02,880
if we're going to be uh having

1099
00:42:07,030 --> 00:42:05,119
conversations like this in conversations

1100
00:42:08,470 --> 00:42:07,040
with anybody else as well

1101
00:42:10,710 --> 00:42:08,480
right

1102
00:42:11,910 --> 00:42:10,720
yeah ditto

1103
00:42:15,030 --> 00:42:11,920
yeah

1104
00:42:16,790 --> 00:42:15,040
john i'm curious um and you maybe have

1105
00:42:17,829 --> 00:42:16,800
said this in one of your other podcasts

1106
00:42:20,230 --> 00:42:17,839
but

1107
00:42:22,230 --> 00:42:20,240
you are effectively out of out of the

1108
00:42:24,710 --> 00:42:22,240
closet here in

1109
00:42:25,589 --> 00:42:24,720
making a podcaster out of yourself

1110
00:42:28,230 --> 00:42:25,599
what

1111
00:42:31,349 --> 00:42:28,240
in you

1112
00:42:32,150 --> 00:42:31,359
that compelled you to surface like this

1113
00:42:35,349 --> 00:42:32,160
and

1114
00:42:36,390 --> 00:42:35,359
put yourself out there

1115
00:42:37,430 --> 00:42:36,400
um

1116
00:42:38,470 --> 00:42:37,440
that's not a

1117
00:42:40,630 --> 00:42:38,480
question

1118
00:42:43,270 --> 00:42:40,640
no it's just that i don't know that i've

1119
00:42:47,109 --> 00:42:43,280
come up with the complete answer

1120
00:42:49,990 --> 00:42:47,119
you know i i think it's um

1121
00:42:54,230 --> 00:42:50,000
for me like uh a lot of what i do for

1122
00:42:57,510 --> 00:42:54,240
therapy you know for myself is like

1123
00:42:59,510 --> 00:42:57,520
doing actions in creation and as

1124
00:43:00,230 --> 00:42:59,520
different aspects of creation

1125
00:43:06,390 --> 00:43:00,240
so

1126
00:43:08,150 --> 00:43:06,400
you know working on my computer and

1127
00:43:10,550 --> 00:43:08,160
whether it's a drum beat or the guitar

1128
00:43:12,710 --> 00:43:10,560
part or the lyrics like when i do that

1129
00:43:14,470 --> 00:43:12,720
that's a way of working through

1130
00:43:17,190 --> 00:43:14,480
my thoughts and

1131
00:43:18,309 --> 00:43:17,200
you know maybe the issues that i have

1132
00:43:19,510 --> 00:43:18,319
um

1133
00:43:21,670 --> 00:43:19,520
and so

1134
00:43:23,990 --> 00:43:21,680
what i mean the experience i had is just

1135
00:43:25,750 --> 00:43:24,000
too dramatic to just

1136
00:43:28,150 --> 00:43:25,760
to say okay i'll just go back to my

1137
00:43:31,109 --> 00:43:28,160
normal life now like it's just it's not

1138
00:43:33,109 --> 00:43:31,119
a possible thing it's not um for the

1139
00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:33,119
kind of person i am i've always been

1140
00:43:38,710 --> 00:43:36,160
very introspective i've always um

1141
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:38,720
um analyzed the things

1142
00:43:43,030 --> 00:43:40,560
you know that i do

1143
00:43:45,670 --> 00:43:43,040
um in ways that

1144
00:43:47,910 --> 00:43:45,680
you know would hopefully help me grow

1145
00:43:49,670 --> 00:43:47,920
um and be stronger and i'm hard on

1146
00:43:50,870 --> 00:43:49,680
myself that way

1147
00:43:54,470 --> 00:43:50,880
um

1148
00:43:57,589 --> 00:43:54,480
and so when that happened to me

1149
00:43:59,670 --> 00:43:57,599
i i it's not so much that i was like i

1150
00:44:02,150 --> 00:43:59,680
had to do something as much as i want to

1151
00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:02,160
put myself out there

1152
00:44:05,510 --> 00:44:04,000
and just see where it goes see what

1153
00:44:07,829 --> 00:44:05,520
happens because

1154
00:44:09,270 --> 00:44:07,839
you know if if i don't take the shot

1155
00:44:11,750 --> 00:44:09,280
then you know i'm definitely going to

1156
00:44:14,230 --> 00:44:11,760
miss and i didn't know anybody in this

1157
00:44:16,950 --> 00:44:14,240
environment completely brand new to

1158
00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:16,960
absolutely every aspect of it and every

1159
00:44:19,589 --> 00:44:18,160
part of it

1160
00:44:20,630 --> 00:44:19,599
um

1161
00:44:21,910 --> 00:44:20,640
but

1162
00:44:24,710 --> 00:44:21,920
you know going back to what i said

1163
00:44:25,829 --> 00:44:24,720
earlier like i don't want to be afraid

1164
00:44:29,030 --> 00:44:25,839
of

1165
00:44:32,150 --> 00:44:29,040
um

1166
00:44:35,430 --> 00:44:32,160
and i'm a speaker and i'm a people guy

1167
00:44:37,270 --> 00:44:35,440
and i always have been so i figure if

1168
00:44:39,349 --> 00:44:37,280
i'm going to figure out anything as far

1169
00:44:41,670 --> 00:44:39,359
as my own experience or

1170
00:44:44,230 --> 00:44:41,680
or whatever help really is what i want

1171
00:44:46,390 --> 00:44:44,240
to do is just help people

1172
00:44:48,870 --> 00:44:46,400
and give them a place to go

1173
00:44:53,190 --> 00:44:48,880
that's has compassion with it

1174
00:44:54,630 --> 00:44:53,200
um you know it it'll be through my voice

1175
00:44:58,309 --> 00:44:54,640
and talking

1176
00:45:00,630 --> 00:44:58,319
um and showing by example there um

1177
00:45:03,430 --> 00:45:00,640
the hard part is that you know i'm a

1178
00:45:04,710 --> 00:45:03,440
person so i'm not perfect either

1179
00:45:07,270 --> 00:45:04,720
um

1180
00:45:09,910 --> 00:45:07,280
and dealing with those imperfections

1181
00:45:12,230 --> 00:45:09,920
uh with a magnifying glass you know as

1182
00:45:13,910 --> 00:45:12,240
little as a magnifying glass that may be

1183
00:45:15,990 --> 00:45:13,920
in my section here

1184
00:45:18,630 --> 00:45:16,000
um it still is one

1185
00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:18,640
and i already had one on myself

1186
00:45:22,950 --> 00:45:20,400
so

1187
00:45:25,030 --> 00:45:22,960
uh that's been a challenge to get used

1188
00:45:26,390 --> 00:45:25,040
to but it's also

1189
00:45:28,790 --> 00:45:26,400
uh good for me

1190
00:45:32,150 --> 00:45:28,800
you know i'm not afraid to

1191
00:45:33,510 --> 00:45:32,160
to do things that are challenging

1192
00:45:35,030 --> 00:45:33,520
um if

1193
00:45:37,829 --> 00:45:35,040
i really believe that they're good for

1194
00:45:39,750 --> 00:45:37,839
me i'll take that choice i'll take that

1195
00:45:41,109 --> 00:45:39,760
chance every time

1196
00:45:42,550 --> 00:45:41,119
um

1197
00:45:43,589 --> 00:45:42,560
and

1198
00:45:45,030 --> 00:45:43,599
you know

1199
00:45:46,630 --> 00:45:45,040
i don't know as you can tell i'm still

1200
00:45:48,470 --> 00:45:46,640
figuring it out

1201
00:45:49,990 --> 00:45:48,480
but really i'm i'm just

1202
00:45:52,870 --> 00:45:50,000
yeah i'm just trying to be a good

1203
00:45:54,470 --> 00:45:52,880
example i guess the best i can so

1204
00:45:56,390 --> 00:45:54,480
that's that's brilliant i love that you

1205
00:45:58,950 --> 00:45:56,400
were able to articulate that thanks for

1206
00:46:01,349 --> 00:45:58,960
thanks for sharing and it seems clear

1207
00:46:03,109 --> 00:46:01,359
that you are um

1208
00:46:05,190 --> 00:46:03,119
you know in reaching out to connect with

1209
00:46:08,069 --> 00:46:05,200
others who um

1210
00:46:09,430 --> 00:46:08,079
are needing community that and and that

1211
00:46:11,190 --> 00:46:09,440
you can so that you can also get

1212
00:46:13,589 --> 00:46:11,200
community for yourself

1213
00:46:16,390 --> 00:46:13,599
you're doing a service in terms of

1214
00:46:18,470 --> 00:46:16,400
amplification you know elevating the

1215
00:46:20,069 --> 00:46:18,480
message and amplifying it which i think

1216
00:46:21,030 --> 00:46:20,079
is a really critical

1217
00:46:23,190 --> 00:46:21,040
you know

1218
00:46:26,390 --> 00:46:23,200
process that needs to happen right now

1219
00:46:28,950 --> 00:46:26,400
i just feel like there's a real need um

1220
00:46:30,790 --> 00:46:28,960
somewhere all the time too and you know

1221
00:46:31,670 --> 00:46:30,800
it's up to me to find it so that i can

1222
00:46:34,069 --> 00:46:31,680
help

1223
00:46:35,670 --> 00:46:34,079
you know fill that out um because in the

1224
00:46:38,309 --> 00:46:35,680
end that's all i want to do i don't want

1225
00:46:39,829 --> 00:46:38,319
to be a blood sucker you know i want to

1226
00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:39,839
be the person that's

1227
00:46:44,710 --> 00:46:42,960
uh giving the blood so to speak um and

1228
00:46:46,870 --> 00:46:44,720
just helping

1229
00:46:48,230 --> 00:46:46,880
however i can and i

1230
00:46:49,990 --> 00:46:48,240
at this point

1231
00:46:51,670 --> 00:46:50,000
um it's

1232
00:46:53,190 --> 00:46:51,680
clear to me

1233
00:46:54,069 --> 00:46:53,200
that um

1234
00:46:56,550 --> 00:46:54,079
you know

1235
00:46:58,950 --> 00:46:56,560
the experience here aspect of everything

1236
00:47:01,910 --> 00:46:58,960
right now in particular

1237
00:47:02,870 --> 00:47:01,920
um is in need of more troops not less

1238
00:47:05,829 --> 00:47:02,880
you know

1239
00:47:06,950 --> 00:47:05,839
and i it really perturbs me when i hear

1240
00:47:08,870 --> 00:47:06,960
people

1241
00:47:12,390 --> 00:47:08,880
um try to

1242
00:47:14,790 --> 00:47:12,400
um you know take control of of one

1243
00:47:17,190 --> 00:47:14,800
an experiencer can speak

1244
00:47:18,390 --> 00:47:17,200
and when is the right time for them to

1245
00:47:21,670 --> 00:47:18,400
speak

1246
00:47:24,230 --> 00:47:21,680
you know that is is insulting

1247
00:47:26,790 --> 00:47:24,240
you know who are you to tell

1248
00:47:28,710 --> 00:47:26,800
when i can talk about my experience

1249
00:47:30,950 --> 00:47:28,720
because you want your disclosure i'm

1250
00:47:32,069 --> 00:47:30,960
sorry that i've already had it

1251
00:47:32,870 --> 00:47:32,079
you know

1252
00:47:34,150 --> 00:47:32,880
um

1253
00:47:36,870 --> 00:47:34,160
but like

1254
00:47:39,190 --> 00:47:36,880
i need to talk like otherwise it's it's

1255
00:47:40,790 --> 00:47:39,200
bad for me mentally and emotionally you

1256
00:47:42,630 --> 00:47:40,800
know and

1257
00:47:43,430 --> 00:47:42,640
you need to realize like that's what

1258
00:47:46,470 --> 00:47:43,440
you're

1259
00:47:49,349 --> 00:47:46,480
doing when you say stuff like that and

1260
00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:49,359
try to control people um

1261
00:47:53,270 --> 00:47:51,119
and so

1262
00:47:54,870 --> 00:47:53,280
do you get annoying

1263
00:47:56,790 --> 00:47:54,880
sorry to interrupt do you get annoyed

1264
00:47:58,790 --> 00:47:56,800
when you have to when you

1265
00:48:00,950 --> 00:47:58,800
feel like there's some expectation for

1266
00:48:02,390 --> 00:48:00,960
you to modulate your your narrative or

1267
00:48:04,390 --> 00:48:02,400
the way that you're delivering it is

1268
00:48:08,069 --> 00:48:04,400
that frustrating for you

1269
00:48:10,710 --> 00:48:08,079
uh yeah yeah definitely um when yeah

1270
00:48:13,190 --> 00:48:10,720
when people say things like that

1271
00:48:15,030 --> 00:48:13,200
you know before i was kind of and i

1272
00:48:17,030 --> 00:48:15,040
don't even know if everybody knows

1273
00:48:19,030 --> 00:48:17,040
everything i've gone through i made

1274
00:48:20,390 --> 00:48:19,040
videos of it and stuff but i'm not

1275
00:48:21,990 --> 00:48:20,400
highlighting it every day because i

1276
00:48:23,430 --> 00:48:22,000
don't think it's something

1277
00:48:25,829 --> 00:48:23,440
to like highlight

1278
00:48:28,309 --> 00:48:25,839
and come off like i'm just trying to

1279
00:48:29,270 --> 00:48:28,319
talk about my experience all the time

1280
00:48:30,950 --> 00:48:29,280
you know

1281
00:48:32,470 --> 00:48:30,960
that's something that happened to me

1282
00:48:35,589 --> 00:48:32,480
that um

1283
00:48:38,309 --> 00:48:35,599
i take seriously and am working with but

1284
00:48:41,589 --> 00:48:38,319
that's not that doesn't encompass every

1285
00:48:43,030 --> 00:48:41,599
little piece of who i am either you know

1286
00:48:45,510 --> 00:48:43,040
um so

1287
00:48:48,309 --> 00:48:45,520
but really it's just when people try to

1288
00:48:49,750 --> 00:48:48,319
control me or other people um as far as

1289
00:48:51,750 --> 00:48:49,760
when they can speak

1290
00:48:52,710 --> 00:48:51,760
and when's the right time for them you

1291
00:48:54,150 --> 00:48:52,720
know you

1292
00:48:57,670 --> 00:48:54,160
because you want

1293
00:48:58,710 --> 00:48:57,680
the masses to accept um disclosure

1294
00:48:59,750 --> 00:48:58,720
you know

1295
00:49:02,230 --> 00:48:59,760
um

1296
00:49:04,150 --> 00:49:02,240
well i'm sorry like if they accept

1297
00:49:05,990 --> 00:49:04,160
disclosure and then the experiencers

1298
00:49:07,589 --> 00:49:06,000
come out um

1299
00:49:10,230 --> 00:49:07,599
if that's how you think

1300
00:49:12,470 --> 00:49:10,240
um they're gonna take 180 degree turn

1301
00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:12,480
backwards immediately and say hey this

1302
00:49:17,030 --> 00:49:14,720
seems like the old bait and switch you

1303
00:49:20,150 --> 00:49:18,630
more to that what what do you mean by

1304
00:49:23,589 --> 00:49:20,160
the bait and switch

1305
00:49:26,150 --> 00:49:23,599
well sometimes it feels like um people

1306
00:49:27,190 --> 00:49:26,160
who are championing um disclosure which

1307
00:49:29,349 --> 00:49:27,200
i full

1308
00:49:30,790 --> 00:49:29,359
fully support um

1309
00:49:32,950 --> 00:49:30,800
want to

1310
00:49:35,190 --> 00:49:32,960
not get into the experience or aspect

1311
00:49:36,150 --> 00:49:35,200
because it'll scare people away

1312
00:49:39,670 --> 00:49:36,160
so

1313
00:49:42,069 --> 00:49:39,680
you know

1314
00:49:44,549 --> 00:49:42,079
the experiencers are quiet we we go

1315
00:49:46,710 --> 00:49:44,559
towards disclosure that people accept it

1316
00:49:47,990 --> 00:49:46,720
and then okay then the floodgates open

1317
00:49:49,990 --> 00:49:48,000
and everyone's honest about their

1318
00:49:51,349 --> 00:49:50,000
experiences well a lot of people are

1319
00:49:53,030 --> 00:49:51,359
going to be feeling like are going to

1320
00:49:54,470 --> 00:49:53,040
feel like this isn't what i signed up

1321
00:49:55,589 --> 00:49:54,480
for

1322
00:49:57,670 --> 00:49:55,599
you know

1323
00:50:00,630 --> 00:49:57,680
right this is a bait and switch so you

1324
00:50:02,230 --> 00:50:00,640
gotta you gotta come it's a sales term i

1325
00:50:05,349 --> 00:50:02,240
spent too much time in

1326
00:50:08,150 --> 00:50:05,359
no no i get it this is precisely why

1327
00:50:10,309 --> 00:50:08,160
we've reanimated um a number of projects

1328
00:50:12,710 --> 00:50:10,319
a couple projects under jimmy the

1329
00:50:14,069 --> 00:50:12,720
the the johnny mac institute the the one

1330
00:50:16,150 --> 00:50:14,079
that's most relevant to what you're

1331
00:50:19,270 --> 00:50:16,160
saying right now is the experience or

1332
00:50:21,430 --> 00:50:19,280
disclosure project which is designed to

1333
00:50:23,670 --> 00:50:21,440
create opportunities where

1334
00:50:25,589 --> 00:50:23,680
experiencer ambassadors have a seat at

1335
00:50:28,549 --> 00:50:25,599
the table while we're going through the

1336
00:50:30,790 --> 00:50:28,559
process of disclosure we are you know

1337
00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:30,800
particularly alarmed and frustrated

1338
00:50:34,950 --> 00:50:33,760
exacerbated by irritated by annoyed by

1339
00:50:36,790 --> 00:50:34,960
pick your

1340
00:50:37,829 --> 00:50:36,800
adjective or verb whatever the hell it

1341
00:50:38,630 --> 00:50:37,839
is and

1342
00:50:40,950 --> 00:50:38,640
yeah

1343
00:50:42,470 --> 00:50:40,960
and that's what we are when we are as

1344
00:50:45,109 --> 00:50:42,480
jay i think you talked about this the

1345
00:50:46,230 --> 00:50:45,119
last time that you met with um

1346
00:50:48,630 --> 00:50:46,240
john and

1347
00:50:50,390 --> 00:50:48,640
kirsten and and stuart that

1348
00:50:53,109 --> 00:50:50,400
it's really

1349
00:50:55,190 --> 00:50:53,119
irritating frustrating to not have a

1350
00:50:57,910 --> 00:50:55,200
seat at the table when

1351
00:51:00,390 --> 00:50:57,920
the people who write articles and or

1352
00:51:02,790 --> 00:51:00,400
books about us or research us you know

1353
00:51:04,630 --> 00:51:02,800
interview us in various different ways

1354
00:51:06,950 --> 00:51:04,640
get elevated because of the projects

1355
00:51:09,589 --> 00:51:06,960
that they're working on and suddenly the

1356
00:51:11,670 --> 00:51:09,599
conversation is a degree of separation

1357
00:51:14,069 --> 00:51:11,680
or two degrees of separation

1358
00:51:16,950 --> 00:51:14,079
from you know the ex the experience or

1359
00:51:18,549 --> 00:51:16,960
narrative and a lot gets lost in the

1360
00:51:21,829 --> 00:51:18,559
in the dialogue when that happens

1361
00:51:24,390 --> 00:51:21,839
details that matter that are you know

1362
00:51:25,750 --> 00:51:24,400
significant or have serious implications

1363
00:51:27,510 --> 00:51:25,760
and i think

1364
00:51:30,870 --> 00:51:27,520
you know the reason certainly that i

1365
00:51:32,870 --> 00:51:30,880
resurfaced in our our project is is you

1366
00:51:36,150 --> 00:51:32,880
know trying to gain some momentum right

1367
00:51:38,390 --> 00:51:36,160
now is because we don't want to be left

1368
00:51:41,190 --> 00:51:38,400
behind in this conversation again we

1369
00:51:43,349 --> 00:51:41,200
cannot have a repeat of what happened 20

1370
00:51:45,190 --> 00:51:43,359
30 years ago

1371
00:51:47,589 --> 00:51:45,200
when

1372
00:51:50,069 --> 00:51:47,599
pierre and bud and david jacobs and you

1373
00:51:50,870 --> 00:51:50,079
know all the other researchers were were

1374
00:51:54,069 --> 00:51:50,880
um

1375
00:51:55,270 --> 00:51:54,079
you know elevated into the media and the

1376
00:51:57,190 --> 00:51:55,280
public eye

1377
00:51:58,870 --> 00:51:57,200
because they were you know you know

1378
00:52:01,510 --> 00:51:58,880
exploring exploring or researching this

1379
00:52:04,549 --> 00:52:01,520
phenomenon you know and experiencers are

1380
00:52:06,549 --> 00:52:04,559
always sidelined in this you know in in

1381
00:52:08,230 --> 00:52:06,559
these projects even in the most recent

1382
00:52:10,630 --> 00:52:08,240
recent ones that have been done out

1383
00:52:12,630 --> 00:52:10,640
there i could list off five examples of

1384
00:52:14,470 --> 00:52:12,640
this right away of how we are continuing

1385
00:52:16,549 --> 00:52:14,480
to be sidelined and and that's not all

1386
00:52:19,270 --> 00:52:16,559
right if we don't participate in this

1387
00:52:21,510 --> 00:52:19,280
conversation

1388
00:52:23,510 --> 00:52:21,520
exactly you know the there's going to be

1389
00:52:26,470 --> 00:52:23,520
a dominant narrative of that this is a

1390
00:52:28,630 --> 00:52:26,480
um security a global security threat and

1391
00:52:30,309 --> 00:52:28,640
the powers that be who want to

1392
00:52:33,829 --> 00:52:30,319
manage the narrative in a way that's

1393
00:52:35,829 --> 00:52:33,839
beneficial to them um will be theirs to

1394
00:52:36,710 --> 00:52:35,839
manage and to hold so i think this is a

1395
00:52:38,470 --> 00:52:36,720
time

1396
00:52:40,950 --> 00:52:38,480
in the experience or community where we

1397
00:52:43,510 --> 00:52:40,960
have to grow up pull up our you know big

1398
00:52:45,349 --> 00:52:43,520
person pants and decide that we need to

1399
00:52:46,870 --> 00:52:45,359
take responsibility which is exactly

1400
00:52:49,829 --> 00:52:46,880
what you're doing here

1401
00:52:51,430 --> 00:52:49,839
or um elevating this conversation you

1402
00:52:54,230 --> 00:52:51,440
know having the conversation and then

1403
00:52:56,150 --> 00:52:54,240
amplifying it out into out into the

1404
00:52:59,430 --> 00:52:56,160
world into the community so i think

1405
00:53:00,870 --> 00:52:59,440
you're right on target with that

1406
00:53:02,790 --> 00:53:00,880
hi

1407
00:53:05,109 --> 00:53:02,800
i can't hear you

1408
00:53:07,349 --> 00:53:05,119
oh i could hear you

1409
00:53:08,710 --> 00:53:07,359
yeah can you hear me now

1410
00:53:12,870 --> 00:53:08,720
can you hear me

1411
00:53:17,430 --> 00:53:16,470
yeah i can kind of hear you

1412
00:53:19,349 --> 00:53:17,440
all right

1413
00:53:21,270 --> 00:53:19,359
you just keep talking

1414
00:53:23,030 --> 00:53:21,280
it seems to be working out okay on our

1415
00:53:24,470 --> 00:53:23,040
ends anyway let's see if it let's see if

1416
00:53:27,589 --> 00:53:24,480
the lag works out

1417
00:53:29,589 --> 00:53:27,599
um but i i i i completely agree with

1418
00:53:31,109 --> 00:53:29,599
karen and i think that this it gets down

1419
00:53:32,870 --> 00:53:31,119
to one of the those

1420
00:53:35,510 --> 00:53:32,880
there's this there's this question

1421
00:53:37,670 --> 00:53:35,520
that's gone back for 20 30 years now and

1422
00:53:39,430 --> 00:53:37,680
it's it's why does

1423
00:53:41,910 --> 00:53:39,440
you know why does barbara lamb say

1424
00:53:43,829 --> 00:53:41,920
they're all good and then other people

1425
00:53:45,990 --> 00:53:43,839
say they're all bad or whatever and

1426
00:53:48,230 --> 00:53:46,000
again it's that game of telephone you

1427
00:53:49,190 --> 00:53:48,240
know if they were actually talking to

1428
00:53:51,349 --> 00:53:49,200
those

1429
00:53:53,910 --> 00:53:51,359
if if people are actually talking to the

1430
00:53:56,390 --> 00:53:53,920
experiencers behind

1431
00:53:57,589 --> 00:53:56,400
that writing behind that research you

1432
00:53:59,430 --> 00:53:57,599
would have a more

1433
00:54:01,589 --> 00:53:59,440
people would already have a more nuanced

1434
00:54:04,150 --> 00:54:01,599
understanding and so

1435
00:54:07,109 --> 00:54:04,160
part of that became like how how is this

1436
00:54:09,349 --> 00:54:07,119
media saturated how is it integrated

1437
00:54:11,190 --> 00:54:09,359
and also

1438
00:54:13,829 --> 00:54:11,200
nothing

1439
00:54:15,190 --> 00:54:13,839
brazenly against that generation they

1440
00:54:17,190 --> 00:54:15,200
were they were doing the best that they

1441
00:54:19,349 --> 00:54:17,200
could maybe with what they had in some

1442
00:54:21,109 --> 00:54:19,359
ways but there are big personalities

1443
00:54:22,829 --> 00:54:21,119
involved and sometimes those big

1444
00:54:25,270 --> 00:54:22,839
personalities they want to have the

1445
00:54:26,790 --> 00:54:25,280
spotlight and they want to have it to

1446
00:54:29,670 --> 00:54:26,800
themselves

1447
00:54:31,910 --> 00:54:29,680
and so and so there are these situations

1448
00:54:33,510 --> 00:54:31,920
where a personality involved a

1449
00:54:35,990 --> 00:54:33,520
researcher

1450
00:54:38,549 --> 00:54:36,000
would prefer to just to be the conduit

1451
00:54:41,190 --> 00:54:38,559
for these cases they they'll take the

1452
00:54:43,750 --> 00:54:41,200
cases and then they become the keepers

1453
00:54:45,750 --> 00:54:43,760
of that story themselves and they kind

1454
00:54:48,230 --> 00:54:45,760
of like can take that fire and kind of

1455
00:54:49,829 --> 00:54:48,240
run with it wherever they go

1456
00:54:51,589 --> 00:54:49,839
or or even

1457
00:54:55,990 --> 00:54:51,599
yes completely

1458
00:54:57,990 --> 00:54:56,000
yes all of that and not only does it go

1459
00:54:59,430 --> 00:54:58,000
does that individual

1460
00:55:01,670 --> 00:54:59,440
you know sort of

1461
00:55:03,190 --> 00:55:01,680
co-opt it understandably in the ways

1462
00:55:04,870 --> 00:55:03,200
that they do or

1463
00:55:07,589 --> 00:55:04,880
focus on it in the ways that they do

1464
00:55:10,549 --> 00:55:07,599
what happens is that the broader um

1465
00:55:13,510 --> 00:55:10,559
mainstream public then relates to those

1466
00:55:15,109 --> 00:55:13,520
specific individuals as the keepers of

1467
00:55:16,630 --> 00:55:15,119
of the narrative so that and this is

1468
00:55:19,030 --> 00:55:16,640
sort of what you were saying right so

1469
00:55:21,589 --> 00:55:19,040
then everybody's impression of what this

1470
00:55:24,150 --> 00:55:21,599
phenomenon is about is about how those

1471
00:55:25,990 --> 00:55:24,160
people are interpreting it or you know

1472
00:55:27,430 --> 00:55:26,000
running through their their narrative or

1473
00:55:30,470 --> 00:55:27,440
belief system so

1474
00:55:33,270 --> 00:55:30,480
it's it's problematic the the

1475
00:55:35,510 --> 00:55:33,280
accuracy of of what experiencers are

1476
00:55:38,390 --> 00:55:35,520
going through and the nuance of it the

1477
00:55:40,470 --> 00:55:38,400
emotional affect the real affect of it

1478
00:55:43,750 --> 00:55:40,480
the real implications of it are

1479
00:55:46,390 --> 00:55:43,760
oftentimes lost in these summarizations

1480
00:55:48,630 --> 00:55:46,400
that elevate these these people into

1481
00:55:50,549 --> 00:55:48,640
sort of media darlings of of the moment

1482
00:55:53,430 --> 00:55:50,559
depending on who it is you know and that

1483
00:55:55,570 --> 00:55:53,440
that includes john as well you know so

1484
00:55:57,670 --> 00:55:55,580
john are you back with us now

1485
00:55:59,829 --> 00:55:57,680
[Laughter]

1486
00:56:03,190 --> 00:55:59,839
yeah you're good yeah

1487
00:56:05,109 --> 00:56:03,200
yeah good deal yeah it was just uh a

1488
00:56:09,030 --> 00:56:05,119
little high strangeness over here i'll

1489
00:56:13,270 --> 00:56:11,270
but uh yeah i think

1490
00:56:14,829 --> 00:56:13,280
you know so i may have missed some of it

1491
00:56:16,870 --> 00:56:14,839
but

1492
00:56:18,390 --> 00:56:16,880
um you know

1493
00:56:20,069 --> 00:56:18,400
basically like

1494
00:56:22,630 --> 00:56:20,079
you know the person who has experience

1495
00:56:23,510 --> 00:56:22,640
can do the talking for themselves right

1496
00:56:26,390 --> 00:56:23,520
um

1497
00:56:28,390 --> 00:56:26,400
and it's kind that people want to uh

1498
00:56:31,270 --> 00:56:28,400
work with experiencers and get their

1499
00:56:34,230 --> 00:56:31,280
stories out and all and all of that

1500
00:56:36,470 --> 00:56:34,240
um but when it comes time to

1501
00:56:38,789 --> 00:56:36,480
speak on the matter and

1502
00:56:41,030 --> 00:56:38,799
they're kind of put away in the corner

1503
00:56:43,589 --> 00:56:41,040
um so the light can still shine on the

1504
00:56:47,109 --> 00:56:43,599
author or whatever that's just wrong

1505
00:56:50,390 --> 00:56:47,119
it's it's wrong you know um and

1506
00:56:54,069 --> 00:56:52,390
or the crowd you're you're not gonna get

1507
00:56:56,950 --> 00:56:54,079
the real story

1508
00:56:59,589 --> 00:56:56,960
that way you know language is already

1509
00:57:01,030 --> 00:56:59,599
difficult as we were discussing earlier

1510
00:57:03,910 --> 00:57:01,040
so

1511
00:57:06,549 --> 00:57:03,920
um if that's the case why play telephone

1512
00:57:08,390 --> 00:57:06,559
to tell an important story you know

1513
00:57:10,230 --> 00:57:08,400
let the person tell it themselves you

1514
00:57:11,430 --> 00:57:10,240
don't need a filter first

1515
00:57:12,470 --> 00:57:11,440
yeah

1516
00:57:13,829 --> 00:57:12,480
um

1517
00:57:15,510 --> 00:57:13,839
and i think what you're doing is

1518
00:57:17,829 --> 00:57:15,520
fantastic and if there's anything i can

1519
00:57:19,109 --> 00:57:17,839
do to help i'm there as well

1520
00:57:20,230 --> 00:57:19,119
um

1521
00:57:22,470 --> 00:57:20,240
if if

1522
00:57:23,990 --> 00:57:22,480
you know there is a disclosure that's

1523
00:57:25,589 --> 00:57:24,000
going to get anywhere

1524
00:57:28,710 --> 00:57:25,599
it has to be

1525
00:57:30,710 --> 00:57:28,720
well-rounded and include every aspect

1526
00:57:33,109 --> 00:57:30,720
um in a

1527
00:57:36,150 --> 00:57:33,119
you know in a way that people can um

1528
00:57:37,270 --> 00:57:36,160
discover and learn about um as they wish

1529
00:57:38,829 --> 00:57:37,280
you know

1530
00:57:41,670 --> 00:57:38,839
and when you say well when you say

1531
00:57:43,990 --> 00:57:41,680
well-rounded um what comes to mind for

1532
00:57:44,870 --> 00:57:44,000
for you in that respect

1533
00:57:47,990 --> 00:57:44,880
uh

1534
00:57:50,150 --> 00:57:48,000
well that it's not um just looking at

1535
00:57:53,270 --> 00:57:50,160
nuts and bolts or thinking they're

1536
00:57:55,750 --> 00:57:53,280
flying saucers and green men

1537
00:57:56,950 --> 00:57:55,760
from a planet and that's it

1538
00:57:59,510 --> 00:57:56,960
you know

1539
00:58:02,309 --> 00:57:59,520
well rounded to me is knowing that when

1540
00:58:04,789 --> 00:58:02,319
i had my experience i had a dream come

1541
00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:04,799
true that happened two years prior

1542
00:58:09,190 --> 00:58:06,960
about something that's never happened to

1543
00:58:11,030 --> 00:58:09,200
me in my life before and i never thought

1544
00:58:11,829 --> 00:58:11,040
would happen when i had the dream you

1545
00:58:13,589 --> 00:58:11,839
know

1546
00:58:16,230 --> 00:58:13,599
now

1547
00:58:19,109 --> 00:58:16,240
and my sighting two of them both of them

1548
00:58:20,069 --> 00:58:19,119
were on each side of that dream coming

1549
00:58:22,870 --> 00:58:20,079
true

1550
00:58:24,470 --> 00:58:22,880
you know and knowing like the how the

1551
00:58:26,870 --> 00:58:24,480
struggle is real trying to write

1552
00:58:29,349 --> 00:58:26,880
yourself off

1553
00:58:31,270 --> 00:58:29,359
and doing what you can to to

1554
00:58:35,190 --> 00:58:31,280
say oh that's just

1555
00:58:37,109 --> 00:58:35,200
um you know coincidence or whatever or

1556
00:58:38,950 --> 00:58:37,119
you know and that

1557
00:58:40,950 --> 00:58:38,960
the person isn't just

1558
00:58:42,309 --> 00:58:40,960
who's had the experience just ready to

1559
00:58:45,190 --> 00:58:42,319
say

1560
00:58:47,109 --> 00:58:45,200
oh that's real 100 let's go let's do

1561
00:58:49,109 --> 00:58:47,119
this i had you know you're struggling

1562
00:58:51,109 --> 00:58:49,119
with it first you know going through

1563
00:58:52,710 --> 00:58:51,119
denial or

1564
00:58:55,030 --> 00:58:52,720
you know thinking about what it could

1565
00:58:57,990 --> 00:58:55,040
mean what it doesn't mean do you have

1566
00:59:00,150 --> 00:58:58,000
mental issues like i've thought about

1567
00:59:02,470 --> 00:59:00,160
all that stuff you know

1568
00:59:05,109 --> 00:59:02,480
um so it's that's what's real

1569
00:59:07,829 --> 00:59:05,119
well-rounded to me um if people want to

1570
00:59:10,950 --> 00:59:07,839
focus on nuts and bolts and things going

1571
00:59:11,829 --> 00:59:10,960
mach 50 or whatever that's fine you know

1572
00:59:16,789 --> 00:59:11,839
if

1573
00:59:18,549 --> 00:59:16,799
that's fine you know but don't forget

1574
00:59:20,710 --> 00:59:18,559
that um

1575
00:59:22,789 --> 00:59:20,720
you know when you cry

1576
00:59:25,589 --> 00:59:22,799
that emotion you feel

1577
00:59:29,510 --> 00:59:25,599
is a lot stronger than the astonishment

1578
00:59:31,349 --> 00:59:29,520
of seeing something fly at 50 mach 50 or

1579
00:59:33,349 --> 00:59:31,359
max 60 you know

1580
00:59:35,910 --> 00:59:33,359
and that's where um

1581
00:59:38,069 --> 00:59:35,920
that's where the reality lies

1582
00:59:40,470 --> 00:59:38,079
is it are those feelings that some

1583
00:59:42,150 --> 00:59:40,480
people try to ignore

1584
00:59:44,630 --> 00:59:42,160
to be

1585
00:59:46,630 --> 00:59:44,640
jay go ahead i'll add on after that

1586
00:59:48,549 --> 00:59:46,640
okay um i i

1587
00:59:49,990 --> 00:59:48,559
i love where this is headed and i i

1588
00:59:51,990 --> 00:59:50,000
don't know how many more minutes sean

1589
00:59:52,710 --> 00:59:52,000
has left here but this is great and i

1590
00:59:53,670 --> 00:59:52,720
think

1591
00:59:54,870 --> 00:59:53,680
you know

1592
00:59:56,549 --> 00:59:54,880
where how

1593
00:59:59,510 --> 00:59:56,559
what's your what's your minutes minute

1594
01:00:01,510 --> 00:59:59,520
length like at this point it's fine

1595
01:00:04,549 --> 01:00:01,520
yeah so i know where to riff we can go

1596
01:00:06,230 --> 01:00:04,559
until i pass up yep okay wow all right

1597
01:00:07,270 --> 01:00:06,240
just kidding um

1598
01:00:11,349 --> 01:00:07,280
so

1599
01:00:13,510 --> 01:00:11,359
of what you're saying in terms of the

1600
01:00:15,510 --> 01:00:13,520
breadth of of like where are we going to

1601
01:00:17,670 --> 01:00:15,520
find this information and i think that

1602
01:00:19,910 --> 01:00:17,680
it's important that you know earlier

1603
01:00:22,230 --> 01:00:19,920
people like patrick harper came up and

1604
01:00:24,950 --> 01:00:22,240
things like that that or you know

1605
01:00:27,270 --> 01:00:24,960
jacques valet we we keep going back to

1606
01:00:29,510 --> 01:00:27,280
to passport and magonia and things like

1607
01:00:30,870 --> 01:00:29,520
that where or these situations like we

1608
01:00:33,349 --> 01:00:30,880
were talking up at the top of the show

1609
01:00:36,230 --> 01:00:33,359
about gordon white and his in like

1610
01:00:38,069 --> 01:00:36,240
bringing in the history of folklore into

1611
01:00:39,270 --> 01:00:38,079
the phenomena and things like that

1612
01:00:40,230 --> 01:00:39,280
because

1613
01:00:45,190 --> 01:00:40,240
and

1614
01:00:49,190 --> 01:00:45,200
all of that in terms of making a broader

1615
01:00:51,109 --> 01:00:49,200
framework and kind of painting in

1616
01:00:54,150 --> 01:00:51,119
taking more colors into the coloring

1617
01:00:56,549 --> 01:00:54,160
book because there there's for decades

1618
01:00:59,109 --> 01:00:56,559
that there has been so much focus and by

1619
01:01:00,950 --> 01:00:59,119
design i think of

1620
01:01:02,870 --> 01:01:00,960
people in positions of power and

1621
01:01:04,069 --> 01:01:02,880
authority to

1622
01:01:06,950 --> 01:01:04,079
to

1623
01:01:09,270 --> 01:01:06,960
point

1624
01:01:11,829 --> 01:01:09,280
people in this field enthusiasts

1625
01:01:14,789 --> 01:01:11,839
like a cat with a laser pointer

1626
01:01:16,230 --> 01:01:14,799
and keep and keep the eye

1627
01:01:17,190 --> 01:01:16,240
like on

1628
01:01:18,630 --> 01:01:17,200
um

1629
01:01:21,270 --> 01:01:18,640
whether something's going to be

1630
01:01:22,470 --> 01:01:21,280
disclosed from some official pentagon

1631
01:01:25,109 --> 01:01:22,480
scenario

1632
01:01:27,109 --> 01:01:25,119
and get in and get into this palace

1633
01:01:28,549 --> 01:01:27,119
intrigue about how much or how little do

1634
01:01:31,510 --> 01:01:28,559
we trust the government or something

1635
01:01:34,230 --> 01:01:31,520
like that and there's a directness that

1636
01:01:36,710 --> 01:01:34,240
that people like like

1637
01:01:38,549 --> 01:01:36,720
any any old experiencer you could find

1638
01:01:41,589 --> 01:01:38,559
like yourself have where it's just like

1639
01:01:43,750 --> 01:01:41,599
okay you know like maybe i don't always

1640
01:01:46,069 --> 01:01:43,760
need to play that game of whether the

1641
01:01:46,870 --> 01:01:46,079
cat can have a little piece of salami or

1642
01:01:48,230 --> 01:01:46,880
not

1643
01:01:50,950 --> 01:01:48,240
do you know what i mean

1644
01:01:53,349 --> 01:01:50,960
that i did that idea of like of like can

1645
01:01:55,829 --> 01:01:53,359
i have that can i plea like this am i

1646
01:01:57,190 --> 01:01:55,839
worthy enough of getting some like tiny

1647
01:01:59,750 --> 01:01:57,200
little scrap

1648
01:02:01,829 --> 01:01:59,760
yeah right and and of course we want

1649
01:02:03,910 --> 01:02:01,839
that and but at the same time there's

1650
01:02:05,670 --> 01:02:03,920
there's there's the directness and

1651
01:02:06,470 --> 01:02:05,680
there's the nuance of the cases that can

1652
01:02:09,270 --> 01:02:06,480
happen

1653
01:02:11,829 --> 01:02:09,280
and there's a lot of there's a lot of

1654
01:02:14,069 --> 01:02:11,839
detail there that can happen without you

1655
01:02:16,470 --> 01:02:14,079
having to wonder about whether

1656
01:02:18,309 --> 01:02:16,480
this new you know and whatever the new

1657
01:02:20,870 --> 01:02:18,319
version of asap is is going to give us

1658
01:02:24,069 --> 01:02:20,880
something in three years or not right

1659
01:02:25,430 --> 01:02:24,079
right though we want it right

1660
01:02:26,630 --> 01:02:25,440
um

1661
01:02:28,870 --> 01:02:26,640
did you have something that you wanted

1662
01:02:30,470 --> 01:02:28,880
to i did i sort of halfway forgot it

1663
01:02:32,390 --> 01:02:30,480
because i got swallowed up in what you

1664
01:02:34,870 --> 01:02:32,400
were you were saying then i getting

1665
01:02:37,270 --> 01:02:34,880
really present to it um but it both of

1666
01:02:39,029 --> 01:02:37,280
you are making me think of a question

1667
01:02:40,630 --> 01:02:39,039
i'm kind of curious how how you would

1668
01:02:42,549 --> 01:02:40,640
both answer it

1669
01:02:46,390 --> 01:02:42,559
so we're we're clearly talking about

1670
01:02:48,710 --> 01:02:46,400
trying to round out um the the data

1671
01:02:50,870 --> 01:02:48,720
collection the you know to develop a

1672
01:02:52,950 --> 01:02:50,880
data set that is representative of a

1673
01:02:54,789 --> 01:02:52,960
spectrum of experiences

1674
01:02:56,470 --> 01:02:54,799
um you know maybe in a best case

1675
01:02:59,910 --> 01:02:56,480
scenario it's from

1676
01:03:02,309 --> 01:02:59,920
the very esoteric that you know

1677
01:03:04,549 --> 01:03:02,319
that occurs either you know in a dream

1678
01:03:06,549 --> 01:03:04,559
state or or something that like you were

1679
01:03:08,710 --> 01:03:06,559
saying that was precognitive

1680
01:03:11,349 --> 01:03:08,720
dawn for you that was clearly correlated

1681
01:03:13,109 --> 01:03:11,359
to this other experience that happened

1682
01:03:16,309 --> 01:03:13,119
going all the way along the spectrum

1683
01:03:17,750 --> 01:03:16,319
spectrum to the nuts and bolts so in

1684
01:03:19,430 --> 01:03:17,760
terms of how

1685
01:03:21,270 --> 01:03:19,440
you think

1686
01:03:23,430 --> 01:03:21,280
how you might contemplate the most

1687
01:03:27,910 --> 01:03:23,440
effective way

1688
01:03:29,510 --> 01:03:27,920
to create the possibility for a holistic

1689
01:03:30,950 --> 01:03:29,520
data collection

1690
01:03:31,670 --> 01:03:30,960
mechanism

1691
01:03:32,630 --> 01:03:31,680
or

1692
01:03:35,750 --> 01:03:32,640
um

1693
01:03:38,150 --> 01:03:35,760
organization whatever it is

1694
01:03:40,390 --> 01:03:38,160
do you think that we

1695
01:03:41,589 --> 01:03:40,400
that it makes sense to be

1696
01:03:43,430 --> 01:03:41,599
broad

1697
01:03:45,190 --> 01:03:43,440
in the beginning in terms of like look

1698
01:03:47,430 --> 01:03:45,200
this is all the stuff that comes in this

1699
01:03:48,630 --> 01:03:47,440
bucket if we're being honest this is

1700
01:03:50,870 --> 01:03:48,640
what it is

1701
01:03:52,230 --> 01:03:50,880
or do you think it makes more sense from

1702
01:03:54,150 --> 01:03:52,240
the beginning

1703
01:03:56,710 --> 01:03:54,160
um because we're trying to connect with

1704
01:03:59,589 --> 01:03:56,720
these people who are dealing with the

1705
01:04:00,789 --> 01:03:59,599
nuts and bolts phenomenon that it does

1706
01:04:03,829 --> 01:04:00,799
you know with the way in which this

1707
01:04:05,029 --> 01:04:03,839
phenomena shows up in material reality

1708
01:04:07,430 --> 01:04:05,039
which is really the thing that's going

1709
01:04:09,349 --> 01:04:07,440
to be most persuasive to

1710
01:04:12,069 --> 01:04:09,359
um the mainstream

1711
01:04:14,230 --> 01:04:12,079
psyche because it falls it fits into our

1712
01:04:15,910 --> 01:04:14,240
newtonian cartesian worldview

1713
01:04:18,069 --> 01:04:15,920
so again i know i'm kind of circling

1714
01:04:20,870 --> 01:04:18,079
around this but

1715
01:04:23,750 --> 01:04:20,880
all of it at the beginning or keep it

1716
01:04:27,589 --> 01:04:23,760
narrow narrower narrower

1717
01:04:29,510 --> 01:04:27,599
so that we can make contact with or have

1718
01:04:31,750 --> 01:04:29,520
credibility in a way that we wouldn't

1719
01:04:33,510 --> 01:04:31,760
normally have credibility because you

1720
01:04:35,589 --> 01:04:33,520
know mainstream people if we start

1721
01:04:37,349 --> 01:04:35,599
talking about these you know

1722
01:04:38,630 --> 01:04:37,359
thigh phenomena stuff

1723
01:04:40,870 --> 01:04:38,640
you know they're gonna

1724
01:04:42,789 --> 01:04:40,880
i i personally worry

1725
01:04:45,190 --> 01:04:42,799
and have had the experience that we just

1726
01:04:47,029 --> 01:04:45,200
get you know pushed aside because we're

1727
01:04:50,230 --> 01:04:47,039
clearly talking about stuff that can't

1728
01:04:52,870 --> 01:04:50,240
be proven through the scientific method

1729
01:04:55,190 --> 01:04:52,880
so what's what's the fine line what's

1730
01:04:59,270 --> 01:04:55,200
what's the balance to

1731
01:05:01,510 --> 01:04:59,280
to walk and or create from here given

1732
01:05:05,510 --> 01:05:01,520
the risk where we're trying to be

1733
01:05:07,910 --> 01:05:05,520
authentic and true to the detail versus

1734
01:05:09,270 --> 01:05:07,920
so honest that we become literally

1735
01:05:11,670 --> 01:05:09,280
incredible to

1736
01:05:14,390 --> 01:05:11,680
a listener or someone who could take us

1737
01:05:17,430 --> 01:05:14,400
seriously and be beneficial in doing so

1738
01:05:19,829 --> 01:05:17,440
i'm curious how you both land on that

1739
01:05:20,710 --> 01:05:19,839
well to me right away what i think of is

1740
01:05:23,430 --> 01:05:20,720
um

1741
01:05:25,670 --> 01:05:23,440
you know holding back certain details or

1742
01:05:28,230 --> 01:05:25,680
trying to be palatable to a nuts and

1743
01:05:30,309 --> 01:05:28,240
bolts crew or whatever is kind of no

1744
01:05:31,430 --> 01:05:30,319
different than what is currently

1745
01:05:33,270 --> 01:05:31,440
happening

1746
01:05:34,549 --> 01:05:33,280
to experiencers and has happened to

1747
01:05:36,789 --> 01:05:34,559
experiencers

1748
01:05:37,829 --> 01:05:36,799
which is push you to the side because

1749
01:05:40,950 --> 01:05:37,839
the

1750
01:05:43,910 --> 01:05:40,960
is

1751
01:05:46,309 --> 01:05:43,920
you know too much for us you know

1752
01:05:48,309 --> 01:05:46,319
so it it you know coming up with a way

1753
01:05:50,710 --> 01:05:48,319
to be palatable to you know a nuts and

1754
01:05:51,829 --> 01:05:50,720
bolts crew and leaving

1755
01:05:52,630 --> 01:05:51,839
that out

1756
01:05:54,069 --> 01:05:52,640
is

1757
01:05:56,150 --> 01:05:54,079
kind of

1758
01:05:57,270 --> 01:05:56,160
now you're doing it to yourself

1759
01:06:01,109 --> 01:05:57,280
you know

1760
01:06:01,910 --> 01:06:01,119
um is is what i would think

1761
01:06:02,870 --> 01:06:01,920
um

1762
01:06:06,069 --> 01:06:02,880
i think

1763
01:06:08,069 --> 01:06:06,079
it would be more about the presentation

1764
01:06:10,230 --> 01:06:08,079
perhaps as you were saying earlier in

1765
01:06:11,270 --> 01:06:10,240
the intent of uh who you're speaking to

1766
01:06:13,829 --> 01:06:11,280
maybe

1767
01:06:15,510 --> 01:06:13,839
so not so much leaving it out but in how

1768
01:06:16,549 --> 01:06:15,520
you present it

1769
01:06:19,510 --> 01:06:16,559
you know

1770
01:06:21,589 --> 01:06:19,520
um so that when they hear it

1771
01:06:23,270 --> 01:06:21,599
you know it makes um

1772
01:06:25,430 --> 01:06:23,280
sense you know whether it's on a

1773
01:06:27,829 --> 01:06:25,440
timeline based thing or a

1774
01:06:28,630 --> 01:06:27,839
an emotional based thing or or what have

1775
01:06:29,670 --> 01:06:28,640
you

1776
01:06:32,309 --> 01:06:29,680
um

1777
01:06:34,470 --> 01:06:32,319
i'm always for collecting all the data

1778
01:06:36,309 --> 01:06:34,480
um from everybody

1779
01:06:38,950 --> 01:06:36,319
and trying to hit

1780
01:06:42,390 --> 01:06:38,960
it and see what correlates i mean nobody

1781
01:06:45,190 --> 01:06:42,400
can argue with there's 100 cases each

1782
01:06:46,789 --> 01:06:45,200
person had this first or that

1783
01:06:49,670 --> 01:06:46,799
next or

1784
01:06:52,789 --> 01:06:49,680
you know describe this the same way or

1785
01:06:54,870 --> 01:06:52,799
whatever like the the pure volume

1786
01:06:57,430 --> 01:06:54,880
um you know does

1787
01:07:00,789 --> 01:06:57,440
you know speak scientifically i think uh

1788
01:07:02,470 --> 01:07:00,799
to a certain extent um although i'm not

1789
01:07:04,870 --> 01:07:02,480
the most knowledgeable

1790
01:07:06,150 --> 01:07:04,880
on the subject

1791
01:07:10,470 --> 01:07:06,160
i've just been through what i've been

1792
01:07:14,789 --> 01:07:10,480
through and try to speak um

1793
01:07:16,630 --> 01:07:14,799
compassionately but organized i guess

1794
01:07:18,870 --> 01:07:16,640
because i've you know been a boss and

1795
01:07:21,109 --> 01:07:18,880
all that for a long time so

1796
01:07:24,230 --> 01:07:21,119
um i think it's

1797
01:07:26,630 --> 01:07:24,240
just about being honest because it

1798
01:07:27,510 --> 01:07:26,640
and not that it wouldn't be honest but

1799
01:07:30,710 --> 01:07:27,520
um

1800
01:07:33,349 --> 01:07:30,720
the the more you leave out or

1801
01:07:35,990 --> 01:07:33,359
or whatever it just winds up coming back

1802
01:07:37,990 --> 01:07:36,000
at some point and you you'll have to

1803
01:07:41,910 --> 01:07:38,000
deal with it at some point

1804
01:07:43,750 --> 01:07:41,920
um so why not deal with it up front and

1805
01:07:45,349 --> 01:07:43,760
come up with a great way to present it

1806
01:07:46,630 --> 01:07:45,359
and trust in

1807
01:07:48,390 --> 01:07:46,640
yourself

1808
01:07:49,829 --> 01:07:48,400
um

1809
01:07:52,230 --> 01:07:49,839
that it'll happen

1810
01:07:53,829 --> 01:07:52,240
you know and get rid of that

1811
01:07:57,190 --> 01:07:53,839
i have something to add to that jay i

1812
01:07:59,029 --> 01:07:57,200
know i asked you um but do you mind if

1813
01:08:01,829 --> 01:07:59,039
can i put a pin in you for just a second

1814
01:08:03,190 --> 01:08:01,839
i realized remember what i was wearing

1815
01:08:05,029 --> 01:08:03,200
what i was going to say before which is

1816
01:08:07,190 --> 01:08:05,039
relevant here so i'm curious to hear how

1817
01:08:09,430 --> 01:08:07,200
you add on to that so apropos to what

1818
01:08:11,990 --> 01:08:09,440
we're talking about here i have a very

1819
01:08:14,470 --> 01:08:12,000
sort of real world application um that's

1820
01:08:17,669 --> 01:08:14,480
an example of um

1821
01:08:20,550 --> 01:08:17,679
reality internal reality as a real thing

1822
01:08:22,390 --> 01:08:20,560
juxtaposed to external reality and maybe

1823
01:08:23,189 --> 01:08:22,400
various dimensions we do or don't know

1824
01:08:26,229 --> 01:08:23,199
about

1825
01:08:27,749 --> 01:08:26,239
so i actually am recently married and i

1826
01:08:29,829 --> 01:08:27,759
spent um

1827
01:08:32,309 --> 01:08:29,839
the better part of four years having

1828
01:08:34,550 --> 01:08:32,319
this relationship digitally i'm here in

1829
01:08:37,430 --> 01:08:34,560
norway i'm married now to a norwegian

1830
01:08:39,030 --> 01:08:37,440
national and i was in chicago illinois

1831
01:08:41,510 --> 01:08:39,040
running my own business when our

1832
01:08:43,910 --> 01:08:41,520
relationship started so

1833
01:08:46,870 --> 01:08:43,920
two years before covet he would visit me

1834
01:08:48,470 --> 01:08:46,880
about three to four times a year

1835
01:08:50,510 --> 01:08:48,480
and that kind of kept the physical

1836
01:08:53,829 --> 01:08:50,520
reality of our relationship

1837
01:08:55,749 --> 01:08:53,839
alight um but once coveted hit that was

1838
01:08:57,189 --> 01:08:55,759
no longer possible he wasn't allowed to

1839
01:08:59,269 --> 01:08:57,199
come into the states and i wasn't

1840
01:09:00,390 --> 01:08:59,279
allowed to come here one of those

1841
01:09:02,550 --> 01:09:00,400
couples

1842
01:09:03,829 --> 01:09:02,560
and we spent the better part of two

1843
01:09:07,349 --> 01:09:03,839
years

1844
01:09:10,309 --> 01:09:07,359
not seeing each other in person and what

1845
01:09:13,349 --> 01:09:10,319
was striking to both of us um

1846
01:09:15,269 --> 01:09:13,359
because we talked every single day on

1847
01:09:16,550 --> 01:09:15,279
online even if it was just for five or

1848
01:09:19,749 --> 01:09:16,560
ten minutes

1849
01:09:22,229 --> 01:09:19,759
we had a two-year

1850
01:09:26,229 --> 01:09:22,239
a logged two-year chapter of our

1851
01:09:28,070 --> 01:09:26,239
relationship that happened digitally so

1852
01:09:30,229 --> 01:09:28,080
not anything that happened in physical

1853
01:09:32,229 --> 01:09:30,239
reality just something that

1854
01:09:33,749 --> 01:09:32,239
by our interactions with each other we

1855
01:09:37,030 --> 01:09:33,759
would have these

1856
01:09:37,910 --> 01:09:37,040
responses of love frustration

1857
01:09:43,910 --> 01:09:37,920
you know

1858
01:09:46,709 --> 01:09:43,920
through in a relationship save the

1859
01:09:49,910 --> 01:09:46,719
physical part of it and we were able to

1860
01:09:50,990 --> 01:09:49,920
grow and evolve together as a result of

1861
01:09:53,669 --> 01:09:51,000
this

1862
01:09:54,550 --> 01:09:53,679
non-relationship relationship so in that

1863
01:09:55,990 --> 01:09:54,560
sense

1864
01:09:59,110 --> 01:09:56,000
somebody who's looking at it from the

1865
01:10:01,669 --> 01:09:59,120
outside in it's not a real thing it only

1866
01:10:02,470 --> 01:10:01,679
exists literally inside of our minds

1867
01:10:07,030 --> 01:10:02,480
so

1868
01:10:08,470 --> 01:10:07,040
to the reality of that like how do we

1869
01:10:10,950 --> 01:10:08,480
define reality

1870
01:10:13,030 --> 01:10:10,960
right so and that being said now that

1871
01:10:18,470 --> 01:10:13,040
i'm physically here

1872
01:10:20,390 --> 01:10:18,480
relationship that we have is different

1873
01:10:21,270 --> 01:10:20,400
the challenges that come up are

1874
01:10:25,669 --> 01:10:21,280
different

1875
01:10:27,030 --> 01:10:25,679
the physical component makes a

1876
01:10:30,470 --> 01:10:27,040
difference so

1877
01:10:32,709 --> 01:10:30,480
i think it's really critical um that

1878
01:10:35,990 --> 01:10:32,719
when we're trying to be as scientific as

1879
01:10:38,390 --> 01:10:36,000
possible about the distinctions between

1880
01:10:40,870 --> 01:10:38,400
what happens the to the universe within

1881
01:10:42,870 --> 01:10:40,880
us which is real in its own way

1882
01:10:45,030 --> 01:10:42,880
is very different sometimes in what

1883
01:10:47,110 --> 01:10:45,040
happens um when we integrate the

1884
01:10:49,910 --> 01:10:47,120
universe outside of us the physical

1885
01:10:53,030 --> 01:10:49,920
reality and i think experiencer

1886
01:10:55,669 --> 01:10:53,040
abilities to make those discernments to

1887
01:10:57,189 --> 01:10:55,679
academic scientists and anybody else

1888
01:10:59,990 --> 01:10:57,199
that we would care about listening to

1889
01:11:01,590 --> 01:11:00,000
our stories and trying you know to

1890
01:11:03,830 --> 01:11:01,600
you know integrate the nuts and bolts

1891
01:11:06,149 --> 01:11:03,840
aspect of it i think our ability to at

1892
01:11:09,030 --> 01:11:06,159
least articulate those distinctions and

1893
01:11:11,910 --> 01:11:09,040
understand the nuances of them will help

1894
01:11:14,149 --> 01:11:11,920
us be received as more credible in in

1895
01:11:15,270 --> 01:11:14,159
the process if that makes sense

1896
01:11:18,070 --> 01:11:15,280
yeah i mean

1897
01:11:20,149 --> 01:11:18,080
that example is great sorry

1898
01:11:22,149 --> 01:11:20,159
no that yeah that is great i i

1899
01:11:24,310 --> 01:11:22,159
completely agree um

1900
01:11:27,110 --> 01:11:24,320
yeah i love that and it and it does

1901
01:11:28,070 --> 01:11:27,120
point to a couple things one is that

1902
01:11:30,229 --> 01:11:28,080
that

1903
01:11:33,110 --> 01:11:30,239
we need better language we need better

1904
01:11:35,910 --> 01:11:33,120
language when we're when with these

1905
01:11:37,030 --> 01:11:35,920
topics right because

1906
01:11:39,669 --> 01:11:37,040
we've been

1907
01:11:42,390 --> 01:11:39,679
there has been this

1908
01:11:44,470 --> 01:11:42,400
academic meets non-academic vibe and

1909
01:11:46,950 --> 01:11:44,480
then there's been this whole

1910
01:11:48,070 --> 01:11:46,960
problem of push-pull with regard to

1911
01:11:50,950 --> 01:11:48,080
whether

1912
01:11:52,390 --> 01:11:50,960
or not these topics have been or will

1913
01:11:54,709 --> 01:11:52,400
ever be more

1914
01:11:56,950 --> 01:11:54,719
more equally integrated into the ivory

1915
01:11:58,790 --> 01:11:56,960
tower or something like that and

1916
01:12:00,070 --> 01:11:58,800
recognizing like how much do we need

1917
01:12:04,630 --> 01:12:00,080
that or not

1918
01:12:06,950 --> 01:12:04,640
then that also at the same time we all

1919
01:12:09,270 --> 01:12:06,960
recognize that

1920
01:12:11,750 --> 01:12:09,280
technology that is suitably advanced

1921
01:12:12,630 --> 01:12:11,760
will appear as magic and that in many

1922
01:12:14,950 --> 01:12:12,640
ways

1923
01:12:15,750 --> 01:12:14,960
we are the witnesses

1924
01:12:16,550 --> 01:12:15,760
of

1925
01:12:18,630 --> 01:12:16,560
tech

1926
01:12:21,669 --> 01:12:18,640
sometimes that of things that could be

1927
01:12:22,630 --> 01:12:21,679
perceived as technology that is 500

1928
01:12:27,990 --> 01:12:22,640
years

1929
01:12:29,750 --> 01:12:28,000
there i don't want to be pinned down to

1930
01:12:32,149 --> 01:12:29,760
a year because it'll probably be wrong

1931
01:12:34,950 --> 01:12:32,159
right we said a thousand but you said a

1932
01:12:37,669 --> 01:12:34,960
thousand it worked out to be 900 you're

1933
01:12:39,350 --> 01:12:37,679
a liar yeah

1934
01:12:42,390 --> 01:12:39,360
100 yeah

1935
01:12:44,070 --> 01:12:42,400
right exactly but you know it it reminds

1936
01:12:46,870 --> 01:12:44,080
me of a conversation i was in the other

1937
01:12:47,750 --> 01:12:46,880
day and somebody somebody was saying

1938
01:12:49,030 --> 01:12:47,760
oh

1939
01:12:55,430 --> 01:12:49,040
the

1940
01:12:57,590 --> 01:12:55,440
term wu and and for me

1941
01:12:59,430 --> 01:12:57,600
that that it's one of those situations

1942
01:13:01,270 --> 01:12:59,440
where with with

1943
01:13:04,790 --> 01:13:01,280
the term wu

1944
01:13:06,709 --> 01:13:04,800
is often used as this wastebasket term

1945
01:13:08,709 --> 01:13:06,719
where it's like anything

1946
01:13:11,510 --> 01:13:08,719
that is suitably weird enough goes in

1947
01:13:13,350 --> 01:13:11,520
the woo basket but the thing is

1948
01:13:25,990 --> 01:13:13,360
that

1949
01:13:27,430 --> 01:13:26,000
wrap your head around and so when things

1950
01:13:30,390 --> 01:13:27,440
can happen

1951
01:13:33,590 --> 01:13:30,400
right but so when things get too gray or

1952
01:13:35,910 --> 01:13:33,600
they get too unwieldy

1953
01:13:38,310 --> 01:13:35,920
they get thrown into the woo basket and

1954
01:13:40,790 --> 01:13:38,320
then woo becomes this whole thing that

1955
01:13:43,830 --> 01:13:40,800
means 50 different things you've got to

1956
01:13:44,709 --> 01:13:43,840
hold noah's ark of paranormal characters

1957
01:13:48,630 --> 01:13:44,719
in there

1958
01:13:49,990 --> 01:13:48,640
right and then so the term is used as a

1959
01:13:50,790 --> 01:13:50,000
pejorative

1960
01:13:52,870 --> 01:13:50,800
to

1961
01:13:55,110 --> 01:13:52,880
and it explicitly

1962
01:13:57,830 --> 01:13:55,120
it it does the job of what it's

1963
01:14:00,390 --> 01:13:57,840
criticizing so it it it

1964
01:14:01,830 --> 01:14:00,400
like by using that term you're putting a

1965
01:14:04,070 --> 01:14:01,840
box around

1966
01:14:06,630 --> 01:14:04,080
50 things that don't necessarily deserve

1967
01:14:09,990 --> 01:14:06,640
to be thrown together and if we actually

1968
01:14:13,350 --> 01:14:10,000
sat and go and went like you know what

1969
01:14:15,430 --> 01:14:13,360
this is a this is a poltergeist this is

1970
01:14:16,709 --> 01:14:15,440
a this this is a vat

1971
01:14:18,630 --> 01:14:16,719
that that

1972
01:14:21,750 --> 01:14:18,640
that eventually

1973
01:14:24,390 --> 01:14:21,760
we might get to a better sense of of

1974
01:14:26,390 --> 01:14:24,400
because at this point some people within

1975
01:14:29,189 --> 01:14:26,400
our field are like should we call it the

1976
01:14:31,750 --> 01:14:29,199
phenomenon or the phenomena

1977
01:14:33,910 --> 01:14:31,760
right that's how that's how like

1978
01:14:36,630 --> 01:14:33,920
reductive and basic

1979
01:14:39,990 --> 01:14:36,640
parts of parts of this conversation are

1980
01:14:41,590 --> 01:14:40,000
right and and and so they're they're to

1981
01:14:44,149 --> 01:14:41,600
what karne was talking about earlier and

1982
01:14:46,630 --> 01:14:44,159
sean you were talking about earlier too

1983
01:14:48,550 --> 01:14:46,640
this this the melee ability that we need

1984
01:14:50,229 --> 01:14:48,560
to continue to meet people on their

1985
01:14:51,350 --> 01:14:50,239
level is very difficult and i don't

1986
01:14:52,470 --> 01:14:51,360
think that it

1987
01:14:55,430 --> 01:14:52,480
it should never

1988
01:14:57,430 --> 01:14:55,440
involve lying

1989
01:15:00,390 --> 01:14:57,440
you know there will be times where like

1990
01:15:03,189 --> 01:15:00,400
it can involve omission just because if

1991
01:15:05,270 --> 01:15:03,199
we get sidetracked on

1992
01:15:07,430 --> 01:15:05,280
on various aspects of some of this stuff

1993
01:15:08,950 --> 01:15:07,440
you can completely derail conversations

1994
01:15:10,390 --> 01:15:08,960
that are more productive

1995
01:15:12,630 --> 01:15:10,400
right right and i think that that's

1996
01:15:13,910 --> 01:15:12,640
often the case that that happens and we

1997
01:15:16,229 --> 01:15:13,920
don't want that

1998
01:15:18,149 --> 01:15:16,239
but at the same time you know there's

1999
01:15:20,550 --> 01:15:18,159
there's situations like if we didn't

2000
01:15:23,510 --> 01:15:20,560
have your conversation sean if we didn't

2001
01:15:25,270 --> 01:15:23,520
have your color of of speaking about how

2002
01:15:27,830 --> 01:15:25,280
precognitive dreams

2003
01:15:30,790 --> 01:15:27,840
sometimes prefigure

2004
01:15:32,550 --> 01:15:30,800
a ufo encounter and that that

2005
01:15:34,790 --> 01:15:32,560
you know within the experiencer

2006
01:15:36,790 --> 01:15:34,800
community it's often and there have been

2007
01:15:39,189 --> 01:15:36,800
people that have catalogued this before

2008
01:15:41,830 --> 01:15:39,199
that we know that that more often than

2009
01:15:43,990 --> 01:15:41,840
not there's some kind of unifying sense

2010
01:15:46,229 --> 01:15:44,000
of consciousness you know that would be

2011
01:15:49,830 --> 01:15:46,239
it through telepathy or whatever

2012
01:15:53,669 --> 01:15:49,840
and the inconvenient aspect where some

2013
01:15:54,550 --> 01:15:53,679
of these others seem to approach our

2014
01:15:56,870 --> 01:15:54,560
realm

2015
01:15:58,550 --> 01:15:56,880
from a non-linear perspective so they

2016
01:16:02,149 --> 01:15:58,560
don't necessarily deal with time the way

2017
01:16:04,149 --> 01:16:02,159
do we do it seems like through

2018
01:16:05,830 --> 01:16:04,159
some cases that you might find i'm not

2019
01:16:08,390 --> 01:16:05,840
saying that that's absolutely true but

2020
01:16:09,430 --> 01:16:08,400
it seems to be true sometimes okay

2021
01:16:13,350 --> 01:16:09,440
and so

2022
01:16:15,030 --> 01:16:13,360
once when you start laying all that out

2023
01:16:16,070 --> 01:16:15,040
then it starts sounding less like

2024
01:16:17,430 --> 01:16:16,080
something that you have to be

2025
01:16:19,510 --> 01:16:17,440
embarrassed about

2026
01:16:22,950 --> 01:16:19,520
right because like if some of these

2027
01:16:25,430 --> 01:16:22,960
beings do come here from a like another

2028
01:16:28,470 --> 01:16:25,440
realm if that other realm if they can

2029
01:16:30,550 --> 01:16:28,480
approach our timeline at different

2030
01:16:32,390 --> 01:16:30,560
points or if they have some if they're

2031
01:16:34,550 --> 01:16:32,400
so technologically

2032
01:16:36,310 --> 01:16:34,560
mastered that they can actually kind of

2033
01:16:37,750 --> 01:16:36,320
deal with space time in a different way

2034
01:16:39,510 --> 01:16:37,760
than we do

2035
01:16:41,910 --> 01:16:39,520
and if they do

2036
01:16:44,709 --> 01:16:41,920
mind meld with our consciousness as a

2037
01:16:47,590 --> 01:16:44,719
way of communicating as they seem to

2038
01:16:50,229 --> 01:16:47,600
because like in in in many cases

2039
01:16:52,149 --> 01:16:50,239
people say i didn't know why i

2040
01:16:54,630 --> 01:16:52,159
just knew to look up at the sky right

2041
01:16:58,070 --> 01:16:54,640
there or to go outside and it's like

2042
01:17:00,070 --> 01:16:58,080
well if we trace this all back together

2043
01:17:01,990 --> 01:17:00,080
then maybe if you're dealing with some

2044
01:17:04,630 --> 01:17:02,000
being that doesn't necessarily deal with

2045
01:17:05,990 --> 01:17:04,640
non-linear time a lot of this stuff

2046
01:17:07,990 --> 01:17:06,000
seems to make more sense and you don't

2047
01:17:09,910 --> 01:17:08,000
have to be so embarrassed about it so

2048
01:17:12,390 --> 01:17:09,920
there are some levels where where you

2049
01:17:14,709 --> 01:17:12,400
know we can say that here and are we

2050
01:17:16,630 --> 01:17:14,719
going to go say that on the rachel ratio

2051
01:17:18,050 --> 01:17:16,640
probably not you know what i mean oh i

2052
01:17:19,590 --> 01:17:18,060
hope you don't go on that show

2053
01:17:21,910 --> 01:17:19,600
[Laughter]

2054
01:17:25,590 --> 01:17:21,920
well i mean i've got a killer casserole

2055
01:17:29,189 --> 01:17:26,720
alien stew

2056
01:17:31,510 --> 01:17:29,199
[Laughter]

2057
01:17:33,350 --> 01:17:31,520
but anyway that's great

2058
01:17:35,350 --> 01:17:33,360
yeah but the point we need better terms

2059
01:17:38,149 --> 01:17:35,360
we need better language i think that

2060
01:17:40,630 --> 01:17:38,159
that's one key that we can all center on

2061
01:17:42,870 --> 01:17:40,640
yeah yeah and ye i think you're

2062
01:17:47,510 --> 01:17:42,880
completely right because well isn't that

2063
01:17:48,870 --> 01:17:47,520
why you know ufo changed the uap

2064
01:17:51,350 --> 01:17:48,880
you know maybe

2065
01:17:52,390 --> 01:17:51,360
a different category of reasoning but

2066
01:17:53,270 --> 01:17:52,400
still

2067
01:17:56,870 --> 01:17:53,280
um

2068
01:17:59,110 --> 01:17:56,880
it needed different language because ufo

2069
01:18:00,950 --> 01:17:59,120
has been stigmatized for

2070
01:18:02,790 --> 01:18:00,960
you know 80 years

2071
01:18:05,270 --> 01:18:02,800
to mean a certain thing

2072
01:18:07,590 --> 01:18:05,280
um and be attached to

2073
01:18:09,030 --> 01:18:07,600
a certain type of person

2074
01:18:11,590 --> 01:18:09,040
basically

2075
01:18:14,070 --> 01:18:11,600
who believes in it so you know you

2076
01:18:16,630 --> 01:18:14,080
change it maybe you change how people

2077
01:18:19,669 --> 01:18:16,640
look at it um is it successful i don't

2078
01:18:21,669 --> 01:18:19,679
know yet too soon to tell maybe but

2079
01:18:24,790 --> 01:18:21,679
um

2080
01:18:27,189 --> 01:18:24,800
i definitely think in

2081
01:18:29,350 --> 01:18:27,199
you know the experience around

2082
01:18:30,630 --> 01:18:29,360
it's more than needed you know because

2083
01:18:33,030 --> 01:18:30,640
for instance

2084
01:18:34,790 --> 01:18:33,040
i've had quite the experience i've i

2085
01:18:36,630 --> 01:18:34,800
wasn't abducted

2086
01:18:39,430 --> 01:18:36,640
you know that i know of

2087
01:18:41,270 --> 01:18:39,440
or i didn't see aliens

2088
01:18:42,149 --> 01:18:41,280
or

2089
01:18:43,110 --> 01:18:42,159
you know

2090
01:18:46,149 --> 01:18:43,120
it was

2091
01:18:48,070 --> 01:18:46,159
almost like a spiritual situation

2092
01:18:49,030 --> 01:18:48,080
uh

2093
01:18:51,910 --> 01:18:49,040
yeah a

2094
01:18:52,870 --> 01:18:51,920
time warping consciousness experience

2095
01:18:54,870 --> 01:18:52,880
you know

2096
01:18:57,830 --> 01:18:54,880
and there's i don't know what term that

2097
01:19:01,590 --> 01:18:59,910
that's the problem

2098
01:19:03,030 --> 01:19:01,600
that articulates exactly what he's

2099
01:19:05,750 --> 01:19:03,040
talking about and it's frankly it's one

2100
01:19:08,390 --> 01:19:05,760
of the things john ran across in his

2101
01:19:10,070 --> 01:19:08,400
in his research with experiencers as

2102
01:19:11,590 --> 01:19:10,080
well one of the things that happens very

2103
01:19:14,149 --> 01:19:11,600
quickly when we start trying to talk

2104
01:19:16,630 --> 01:19:14,159
about especially the technological

2105
01:19:17,430 --> 01:19:16,640
things that seem like magic or the shift

2106
01:19:19,669 --> 01:19:17,440
in

2107
01:19:21,830 --> 01:19:19,679
physics where our physical reality or

2108
01:19:24,870 --> 01:19:21,840
physics operates in a much more

2109
01:19:27,110 --> 01:19:24,880
expansive um way than what we have ever

2110
01:19:29,350 --> 01:19:27,120
imagined are known how to

2111
01:19:31,830 --> 01:19:29,360
communicate so it's we we literally

2112
01:19:33,750 --> 01:19:31,840
don't have language for this i think we

2113
01:19:36,390 --> 01:19:33,760
need to have patience and going back

2114
01:19:38,950 --> 01:19:36,400
towards you keep using especially sean

2115
01:19:41,110 --> 01:19:38,960
compassion empathy for ourselves as we

2116
01:19:43,590 --> 01:19:41,120
kind of fumble around in the dark for a

2117
01:19:46,070 --> 01:19:43,600
while to kind of figure out how how we

2118
01:19:48,070 --> 01:19:46,080
can communicate this most effectively

2119
01:19:50,070 --> 01:19:48,080
it's it's going to be an ongoing

2120
01:19:52,390 --> 01:19:50,080
evolution for a long time through

2121
01:19:53,910 --> 01:19:52,400
generations past when we're alive for

2122
01:19:55,830 --> 01:19:53,920
sure

2123
01:19:57,669 --> 01:19:55,840
i appreciate the nuances that you guys

2124
01:20:00,870 --> 01:19:57,679
are talking about

2125
01:20:04,470 --> 01:20:00,880
yeah it's it's been um deep very deep

2126
01:20:06,629 --> 01:20:04,480
and i appreciate that with you guys um

2127
01:20:09,030 --> 01:20:06,639
and jay always brings the deep

2128
01:20:12,950 --> 01:20:10,310
thank you john

2129
01:20:14,870 --> 01:20:12,960
thank you for you um giving us the

2130
01:20:15,910 --> 01:20:14,880
opportunity to riff

2131
01:20:17,110 --> 01:20:15,920
any

2132
01:20:18,629 --> 01:20:17,120
time we want to have another

2133
01:20:19,910 --> 01:20:18,639
conversation i'm

2134
01:20:22,229 --> 01:20:19,920
happy to bring one or two more

2135
01:20:24,149 --> 01:20:22,239
interesting people along to to spice up

2136
01:20:26,229 --> 01:20:24,159
the the dialogue for sure

2137
01:20:34,629 --> 01:20:26,239
hey i would love it you are welcome any

2138
01:20:39,270 --> 01:20:36,709
it's been a true pleasure when i say i'm

2139
01:20:41,270 --> 01:20:39,280
here to help i mean it um don't be shy

2140
01:20:43,110 --> 01:20:41,280
if you need something that i can do or

2141
01:20:44,870 --> 01:20:43,120
help with it doesn't have to be related

2142
01:20:46,790 --> 01:20:44,880
to my show or whatever

2143
01:20:49,110 --> 01:20:46,800
um you know

2144
01:20:51,590 --> 01:20:49,120
i'd like to so you know i think we're

2145
01:20:53,669 --> 01:20:51,600
getting getting the community connected

2146
01:20:55,910 --> 01:20:53,679
connect elevate amplify that's what we

2147
01:20:57,910 --> 01:20:55,920
need to be doing so i'm happy to use

2148
01:21:00,709 --> 01:20:57,920
service however i can as well and jimmy

2149
01:21:02,629 --> 01:21:00,719
as well so we'll look to opportunities

2150
01:21:03,990 --> 01:21:02,639
for that as we move forward

2151
01:21:05,189 --> 01:21:04,000
excellent

2152
01:21:06,390 --> 01:21:05,199
all right guys

2153
01:21:07,270 --> 01:21:06,400
all right thank you so much for having

2154
01:21:08,310 --> 01:21:07,280
us on

2155
01:21:10,550 --> 01:21:08,320
yeah

2156
01:21:11,990 --> 01:21:10,560
it was a pleasure thank you for joining

2157
01:21:15,430 --> 01:21:12,000
us and

2158
01:21:16,950 --> 01:21:15,440
until next time um i'll see you later i

2159
01:21:17,750 --> 01:21:16,960
don't have a catchy phrase for that yeah

2160
01:21:19,270 --> 01:21:17,760
okay

2161
01:21:21,750 --> 01:21:19,280
thank you so much

2162
01:21:27,350 --> 01:21:21,760
great great conversation yeah really

2163
01:21:32,149 --> 01:21:30,790
uh i hope you guys enjoyed that um i

2164
01:21:33,990 --> 01:21:32,159
know i did

2165
01:21:37,669 --> 01:21:34,000
um

2166
01:21:39,350 --> 01:21:37,679
always some of the best conversations

2167
01:21:42,390 --> 01:21:39,360
right there

2168
01:21:43,350 --> 01:21:42,400
that really get me personally um

2169
01:21:45,669 --> 01:21:43,360
thinking

2170
01:21:47,590 --> 01:21:45,679
about a lot of different stuff

2171
01:21:50,550 --> 01:21:47,600
and in a good way

2172
01:21:53,030 --> 01:21:50,560
so i hope that happened for some of you

2173
01:21:56,550 --> 01:21:53,040
as well

2174
01:21:58,070 --> 01:21:56,560
um now what i'm gonna do here

2175
01:21:59,430 --> 01:21:58,080
is

2176
01:22:02,550 --> 01:21:59,440
say goodbye

2177
01:22:04,870 --> 01:22:02,560
but also premiere

2178
01:22:06,790 --> 01:22:04,880
a song i made this morning

2179
01:22:12,950 --> 01:22:06,800
another one

2180
01:22:17,430 --> 01:22:15,030
out of my hands i only know what happens

2181
01:22:20,310 --> 01:22:17,440
on land so don't be jealous i still hide

2182
01:22:21,750 --> 01:22:20,320
as much as i can

2183
01:22:25,030 --> 01:22:21,760
and even though it was quite an

2184
01:22:28,709 --> 01:22:26,870
i've given some thought to it and i can

2185
01:22:29,450 --> 01:22:28,719
say it's only for the brave so please

2186
01:22:35,669 --> 01:22:29,460
behave

2187
01:22:57,830 --> 01:22:35,679
[Music]

2188
01:23:01,590 --> 01:22:59,830
if he just still like no one would know

2189
01:23:03,510 --> 01:23:01,600
unless you have a new load and pick up

2190
01:23:06,070 --> 01:23:03,520
and start again i'm not the only one who

2191
01:23:11,430 --> 01:23:06,080
still weighs a ton

2192
01:23:15,970 --> 01:23:14,550
confusing as red rain

2193
01:23:19,750 --> 01:23:15,980
brings the same hay

2194
01:23:23,510 --> 01:23:21,750
enlightening i'm sure

2195
01:23:26,120 --> 01:23:23,520
but i haven't gotten that far for

2196
01:23:28,070 --> 01:23:26,130
sake i just lost my car

2197
01:23:32,830 --> 01:23:28,080
[Music]

2198
01:23:38,110 --> 01:23:35,750
today i've lied before but just about

2199
01:23:47,890 --> 01:23:38,120
stuff on the first floor

2200
01:23:56,190 --> 01:23:47,900
[Music]

2201
01:23:57,390 --> 01:23:56,200
[Applause]

2202
01:23:59,230 --> 01:23:57,400
[Music]

2203
01:24:18,180 --> 01:23:59,240
[Applause]

2204
01:24:20,110 --> 01:24:18,190
[Music]

2205
01:24:29,030 --> 01:24:20,120
[Applause]

2206
01:24:31,120 --> 01:24:29,040
[Music]

2207
01:24:31,660 --> 01:24:31,130
[Applause]

2208
01:24:42,310 --> 01:24:31,670
[Music]

2209
01:24:57,030 --> 01:24:45,370
and maybe that's all they

2210
01:24:59,830 --> 01:24:57,040
[Music]

2211
01:25:01,910 --> 01:24:59,840
pleasant and are for memories everyday

2212
01:25:04,390 --> 01:25:01,920
thoughts distracted by whatever you are

2213
01:25:05,750 --> 01:25:04,400
please believe me i'm hurting but i'm

2214
01:25:07,669 --> 01:25:05,760
learning

2215
01:25:10,070 --> 01:25:07,679
indecision ain't helping but what can i

2216
01:25:11,510 --> 01:25:10,080
expect of myself i can be strong but not

2217
01:25:13,270 --> 01:25:11,520
so much

2218
01:25:15,189 --> 01:25:13,280
now go make a comic about the ones you

2219
01:25:18,310 --> 01:25:15,199
wish you were just trust me no one you

2220
01:25:21,990 --> 01:25:18,320
on will say the same of themselves

2221
01:25:26,680 --> 01:25:22,000
but you can attribute it to the wealth

2222
01:25:33,480 --> 01:25:31,030
[Music]

2223
01:25:40,070 --> 01:25:33,490
it's just the same as you are

2224
01:25:41,860 --> 01:25:40,080
[Music]

2225
01:25:43,110 --> 01:25:41,870
it's just insane as they are

2226
01:25:46,390 --> 01:25:43,120
[Music]

2227
01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:46,400
it's just the same as you are

2228
01:25:54,390 --> 01:25:49,010
it's insane

2229
01:25:58,460 --> 01:25:54,400
[Music]

2230
01:26:08,710 --> 01:25:58,470
it's just the same as you love